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The Gospel of Atheism

Thu Sep 4, 2008 2:24 AM EDT
religion, christianity, atheism, lvs2, lvs2-03
By Danny McGee
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Nothing happens when you die. The existence of the universe in its present manifestation is a cosmic accident. Life has no purpose, it is void of all meaning. There is no reason beyond personal self-gratification to aspire to anything. The pleasure and well-being of the Self is top priority and everything and everyone else is expendable to that end. These are concepts which undoubtedly spring to the minds of many when pondering the meaning of that dreaded word, "Atheism." So how can I possibly the have the audacity to even use the word "Gospel," which means "good news," in the same sentence?

A fairly recent Gallup poll revealed that more than 50% of Americans would decline to vote for a "generally well-qualified candidate" nominated by their own political party if that candidate were an atheist. This beats out prejudice against blacks, women, Mormons and gays by orders of magnitude. Clearly, atheists are not very well-liked among members of the general public. I can do little better than speculate on the reasons for this, but based on personal experience and discussions I've had with many people, even some of my closest friends, even close friends who call themselves agnostic, I have reason to believe that much of this negative sentiment stems from some of the false notions of atheism mentioned above.

My goal here is not to prove that all atheists are outstanding people, pillars of society or even necessarily individuals you'd much like to have a beer with. Atheism, by its very nature, is a simple statement of nonbelief, bearing no organized belief structure, set of values or standardized worldview. It's a group label that really narrows it down to the least common denominator; all that's required for membership is lack of belief in a deity. The effect of this is that people bearing the label of "atheist" come in all shapes and sizes. From Joseph Stalin, tyrant of the Soviet Union and murderer of countless political dissenters, to Bertrand Russell, British philosopher and diehard pacifist. From Carl Sagan, who taught the world to find inspiration in the stars, to Richard Dawkins, who advocates evolution with unrivaled ferocity. From Friedrich Nietzsche, the foremost pioneer of Nihilism, to Dr. Paul Kurtz, the founder of the Council for Secular Humanism. From Karl Marx, the father of Communism, to Ayn Rand, staunch champion of laissez-faire capitalism. The only person I can truly speak for is myself, and that is what I intend to do with this piece.

Defining our terms

First of all, what do I mean when I say that I am an atheist? Envision this scenario: You, myself, and a group of other people are sitting, standing, pacing or whatever else you'd like to imagine, in a room. The room is vast, nearly infinitely complex, adorned with countless decorations and objects of interest, such that a single one of us could never in our lifetimes exhaustively investigate the whole of its contents. This room represents the extent of the physical universe: everything we can see, hear, touch, taste, smell, observe, and experiment with. The room has four solid, impenetrable walls with no doors, no windows and no holes. A question is raised: The room itself is fascinating in its grandeur, with many things to explore and discover and admire, but what lies outside these four walls?

Some speculate that there is a personal being who exists outside the room, who created the room and all its contents. They write books about this being, they imagine that he must be similar in nature to ourselves, some of them admire and fear him and believe that he even has an active influence on the daily goings-on of the inside of the room. Some even claim that they can feel his presence on some deep level. Others call that ridiculous. They say the nature of the room and its contents indicate that there couldn't possibly be anything outside the room, that the room is the extent of everything that exists, and everything else is mere fairy tale.

The question comes to me. What do I believe is outside the room? My answer is quite simple: I don't know, and I make no assumptions. I could speculate and imagine for hours, but at the end of the day it would be just speculation. It's impossible to peer beyond the walls to see for myself, and without any evidence of anything I don't much care to guess. Besides, there are still so many fascinating things inside the room that have yet to be discovered. If asked the specific question, "Do you believe in the being that created the room?" I would have to say no, simply because I cannot profess my belief in something I cannot physically experience in some way.

Some might say that definition qualifies me as an agnostic, not an atheist. I say that it qualifies me as an agnostic and an atheist. On a philosophical level, sure, it's impossible to know what is or isn't outside of the room. It could be anything, it could be nothing at all. You could be right, the being who created the room could be real. But if pressed, I would have to say I don't believe this being exists. Why? If nothing else, then for the sheer unlikelihood that the blind speculations of my fellow people of the room have happened onto the correct answer, even with no empirical evidence to follow. Sure, many of them may claim to have personally experienced this being in some way, but what evidence do they have to show for it? And furthermore, there are dozens of different people all claiming to have felt and been spoken to by this being, but they all have wildly incompatible ideas of who and what this being is, so I can't just take all of them at their word, and if I choose to take one of them at their word and say that everyone else is wrong, it would be little more than a random decision.

I'm also unimpressed, however, by the people claiming that they've found proof within the room that the room is the only thing that exists. For how can anything inside the room possibly indicate the nonexistence of anything outside the room? No, I prefer to remain content in my lack of knowledge until someone manages to poke a hole in the wall. Replace this room with the physical universe, and replace the "beings" with the god or gods of your choice, and you have my stance on theistic belief.

So what about morality?

For most people of the world and especially the United States, religious belief is a prime source of ethics, values, inspiration and motivation. We do good, that the glory of God might be made manifest through our actions. We define "good" by the set of laws and values God has established for us. But what if we don't believe in God? What, then, governs our behavior and morality, what is there to define for us what is "good"? Many atheists, like Nietzsche, have deduced that without God, concepts like "morality" and "altruism" are meaningless; futile ventures in the grand scheme of things which should bear no relevance to how we live our lives. For myself, I must sharply disagree with this notion.

Empathy is a deeply human characteristic, hard-coded into our DNA by millions of years of evolution. The ability and inclination to empathize is so firmly rooted into our biology that it is inseparable from the definition of humanity, except by rare psychological disorders like sociopathy. When we witness the suffering of others, we suffer ourselves. It is why we grieve when we read a sad story, why we cringe when we see violence, why we squirm at the sight of blood. This, for me, lies at the core of my morality. I despise seeing others suffer as much as I despise to suffer myself. I go out of my way to prevent it. I take action to repair it. That is what morality means to me, and it is the basis of my system of ethics. Some might say that defining morality as something born simply of cold, unthinking evolutionary forces cheapens the definition. I disagree. On a purely subjective level, I find it much more beautiful, almost poetic, that the very thing which literally makes us human – our biology, our DNA – is what provides us with our moral backbone.

Carpe diem

So I've defined my independence from religious belief, and I've defined my morality within that framework, but there's one more important question: What about inspiration? Where's the motivation for self-improvement? Why aspire to greater things, why seek to make an impact on the world and improve it for the better? If, in the end, I'm just going to die, and then that's it - game over - doesn't life become utterly pointless? My answer to this one is profoundly simple. I do not have the liberty of believing that I will survive the death of my body. There is no safety net, death is not just a transition into the "next life," death is death. It is final. It is absolute. This, to me, does the exact opposite of cheapening the value of life. On the contrary, this concept makes life literally infinitely more valuable. If for a single day I do not learn anything new, do nothing to improve myself, make no attempt to make the world just a little bit nicer for someone else, or take the time to appreciate the little things we so often take for granted, then I have lost a full day of my life which I'll never be able to get back. My life is finite, which makes it the most precious of all commodities. Squandering even a moment of it is completely unacceptable to me.

In conclusion

I am an atheist. The mere sight of that sentence, I'm sure, causes many to cringe. I only hope, however, that through the course of this piece I have alleviated you, the reader, of this gut reaction, if only just a little bit. I hope that I may have caused you to realize that the statement really does very little to describe who I am. It means I do not believe in a god; no more, and no less. It is not a statement of ethics, or of personality, or of outlook, or of philosophy, or of mission or purpose. My atheism does not define who I am as a person. Rather, who I am defines me as an atheist.

Thank you for reading.

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  • Public Discussion (283)
Danny McGee

Ahh, I'm actually sort of disappointed in the quality of this one. I put a lot of time and effort into the first 1500 or so words, and then I had to go fulfill a previous obligation. When I got back home I realized I had two hours to finish and polish it, and I fear I may have rushed it a bit. Critiques are more than welcome on this one. I fear I may be stagnating or even getting worse as a writer. Feel free to tear this to shreds in an "Edit Me" private discussion; I could use the criticism.

And of course, as always, discussion of the topics at hand are also more than welcome. But be warned, since this is a sensitive issue, that violations of the CoH from either side of the fence will be promptly dealt with.

  • 10 votes
#1 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 2:29 AM EDT
Jonathan D. Miller

Danny, you should not be disappointed in the least! The quality of this article is superb

You are clear and concise and you speak of your personal beliefs without being judgmental of others who hold other beliefs.

I've been a Christian for the last 20 of my 26 years, and while we clearly differ on our theology, I know that morally and ethically we see eye to eye.

My favorite part of your article is your example of the intricately decorated room. For me it affirmed the existence of a Creator.

The one issue I did have was this statement:

simply because I cannot profess my belief in something I cannot physically experience in some way.

There are many things, even scientifically proven things, that you cannot physically experience. So are you going to not believe in them simply because they cannot be physically experienced?

I challenge you to examine many of the things that you do take on "faith"1, things that you know exists, but can't experience, and think about why these things are and exception to your stated "rule."

1. By faith I am not referring to anything religious, but merely thinking something is true without empirical (ie physical) evidence.

  • 9 votes
#1.1 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 12:09 PM EDT
Danny McGee

Thanks for the kind words, Jonathan, it's much appreciated.

There are many things, even scientifically proven things, that you cannot physically experience. So are you going to not believe in them simply because they cannot be physically experienced?

I'm curious as to what you mean by "physically experienced"? Maybe it was a poor choice of words on my behalf, but you can't have something that's "scientifically proven" without empirical data in some form of physical observation or experiment.

  • 9 votes
#1.2 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 1:20 PM EDT
E.D.Kain

Danny, I would like to echo Jonathan's praise. I am an atheist of a very, very similar stripe. I never for a moment felt that my atheism excused me from moral behavior. Quite the contrary, I now feel held not only to the moral standards of our community, but to a personal code that goes beyond what I feel are the old, tired moralities of ancient Holy Books.

I also am not a militant atheist, as one could describe Dawkins. I like religious types. I have many Christian friends who I admire greatly. Many Christians do not hold fast to all the old Dogma of the Bible either, and use it more as a moral compass than anything. And I say, whatever works is best, so long as it doesn't hurt others....

Regarding your extended metaphor of the Room, I must say it was effective in its simplicity. I am referred to later on in this thread as a "fake atheist" (Samantha, chuckle....) and I can see why. I am one of those atheists who would very much like to believe in a Faith. I find atheism to be a difficult faith in and of itself. However, like you, when I ponder this Room we are all in, and ponder what's beyond the walls, I find that I simply do not know, and cannot cast my lot in with anyone.

I am a humanist, and care deeply about this world and the people on it, and I do not need a God to inspire that in me. If God inspires others, I think that is beautiful. The fact that some are inspired to do wicked things in the name of God is not an issue for me. Men do wicked things in the name of equality; Nation; Glory; Power. There are many "gods" to inspire us, and just as many to lead us astray.

Excellent piece. Thanks, Samantha, for turning me on to it!

  • 7 votes
#1.3 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 4:01 PM EDT
Samantha Gluck

If God inspires others, I think that is beautiful. The fact that some are inspired to do wicked things in the name of God is not an issue for me. Men do wicked things in the name of equality; Nation; Glory; Power. There are many "gods" to inspire us, and just as many to lead us astray.

I think this is an incredible thought provoking post, Kain, and thank you for checking out this article. I hope you're not offended by my little nickname for you. I didn't think you would be or I wouldn't have put it out there. :)

  • 5 votes
#1.4 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 4:05 PM EDT
Danny McGee

Thanks for reading, Kain! I mostly agree with everything you said. Sometimes it's difficult not to be put off by religion, particularly when people are blowing themselves and others up because God told them to do so, and when school boards are fighting for Creationism to be taught in science classrooms, but I understand that not all religious people are like that (and of course, I also have many close religious friends), and I imagine many Christians often feel the same way when reading some of the more confrontational or arrogant things said by Dawkins, et al. I admire Dawkins greatly for his work in biology, and his book Climbing Mount Improbable is an absolutely amazing read for anyone curious about evolution, particularly if they're new to the idea, don't understand how it works, or aren't familiar with the evidence for it. But there are definitely times when he comes off as a real @!$%# with no respect for anyone who believes differently than we do.

And Samantha, thank you for reading also! I'm glad you enjoyed it, and thanks for spreading the word. :)

  • 4 votes
#1.5 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 4:18 PM EDT
E.D.Kain

Another great Atheist duo is Penn & Teller -- their Bull@!$%# series from Showtime is brilliant, if a little vulgar.

And yes, it's easy to be put off by the suicide bombings, the creationism, etc. but I know many religious people who believe in Evolution; and as history shows, there are many evil men who hold no allegiance to God (you mentioned Stalin already). So it all boils down to humankind, which will find excuses to good or ill no matter what....

  • 5 votes
#1.6 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 4:33 PM EDT
MightyMait

I'm curious as to what you mean by "physically experienced"? Maybe it was a poor choice of words on my behalf, but you can't have something that's "scientifically proven" without empirical data in some form of physical observation or experiment.

Along the lines of this, let's look at this particular statement:

Empathy is a deeply human characteristic, hard-coded into our DNA by millions of years of evolution.

Is this scientific fact? Has the empathy gene been isolated? To my knowledge, this is baseless (except as a natural assumption for a materialist) speculation. If the empathy gene *has* been isolated then we must be working on some sort of genetic therapy for sociopaths.

And furthermore, there are dozens of different people all claiming to have felt and been spoken to by this being, but they all have wildly incompatible ideas of who and what this being is, so I can't just take all of them at their word, and if I choose to take one of them at their word and say that everyone else is wrong, it would be little more than a random decision.

*Apparently* incompatible. I like the analogy of the blind men describing the elephant (which I've cited in similar discussions a number of times). Take a group of blind men/women, put an elephant in front of them and ask them to describe the elephant. The one examining the trunk will have a wildly differing opinion from the one describing the legs, belly, or tusk. Does that mean that any of them are wrong, or that they simply don't have the full picture. If God is infinite, how could anybody have the full picture of what God is like?

Myself, I'm anything *but* infinite, but I'm one thing to my kids (either a benevolent, caring parent, or a raving tyrant depending on what kind of a day I'm having) and something entirely different to a jerk who cuts me off in traffic.

Overall, an excellent article, though.

  • 4 votes
#1.7 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 6:28 PM EDT
spiffie

Has the empathy gene been isolated?

Not every trait is the result of a single gene, and you're mistaken if you think a single gene is required to draw a conclusion about the biological basis of some behaviors. The observance of empathetic effects in animals as diverse as primates and mice suggests that in mammals, at least, there is a common basis for empathy. Considering how similar the chemistry of life is among all animals in general, and all mammals in particular, that's not very surprising. We use other mammals for human analogs all the time in research.

Is it scientific "fact"? "Fact" and "certainty" are big concepts in science. Is there "evidence"? Yes, there is evidence.

Does that mean that any of them are wrong, or that they simply don't have the full picture.

It means that all of them should keep exploring instead of stopping at the first touch. Seriously, I think blind people are more intelligent than the just stop moving along a large object when asked to describe it in full to people. That analogy is just silly. It's like suggesting a group of sighted people would be asked to a write a book report about different pages of the same book, and would then conclude their book reports were each complete. It's an inane assumption.

  • 9 votes
#1.8 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 6:55 PM EDT
MightyMait

The observance of empathetic effects in animals as diverse as primates and mice suggests that in mammals, at least, there is a common basis for empathy.

That common basis might be biological, but it could very well be that *consciousness* (or spirit/soul, for the spiritually-inclined) is the commonality between all living beings that yields qualities like empathy.

It means that all of them should keep exploring instead of stopping at the first touch.

Absolutely. Of course, many of us are lame as well as blind. There's only so far we can explore. Certainly, for any individual or group to claim to have captured reality (mundane *or* spiritual) as their exclusive property is the height of hubris.

  • 2 votes
#1.9 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 7:11 PM EDT
spiffie

That common basis might be biological, but it could very well be that *consciousness* (or spirit/soul, for the spiritually-inclined) is the commonality between all living beings that yields qualities like empathy.

And when you find any objective evidence for spirit/soul/ether, you be sure to let us all know. Right now, we have objective evidence for the biological basis for emotional response in the form of hormones and neurotransmitters.

Of course, many of us are lame as well as blind.

Heh. I think I can agree with that statement.

Why would a lame, blind person put himself or herself forward to be the person to explore the elephant? There's a crowd of blind people there. Let the most able-bodied among them explore the elephant and report back. It seems rather silly of the group to expect the least able among them for this particular task (i.e. I'm sure there are other tasks the lame blind person would be wonderfully suited for) to provide the best report.

Certainly, for any individual or group to claim to have captured reality

Who is claiming this? You can have your spiritual "reality". When you can provide objective evidence for it, let me know. But when you make claims about "mundane" reality, you better be able to back them up with evidence if you want me to take you seriously, because right now we have a pretty good way of arriving at knowledge in the "mundane" realm.

  • 6 votes
#1.10 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 7:33 PM EDT
Danny McGee

Is this scientific fact? Has the empathy gene been isolated? To my knowledge, this is baseless (except as a natural assumption for a materialist) speculation. If the empathy gene *has* been isolated then we must be working on some sort of genetic therapy for sociopaths.

In addition to what spiffie said, the evolutionary advantages of this trait have also been explored to great effect. I'd recommend reading Michael Shermer's The Science of Good and Evil,, and particularly the first two chapters.

As for the elephant analogy: The biggest problem I'm seeing with it is that a trunk and a leg are not mutually exclusive properties. To use Christianity and Islam as an example, Jesus being God according to one religion and not-God according to the other are most definitely mutually exclusive concepts. You can't say that they both just have "incomplete" parts of the big picture. One of them has to be wrong. And then there's the fact that both of them say you're going to hell if you're not part of that religion, but will be rewarded if you are. Again, can't have both at the same time.

  • 5 votes
#1.11 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 8:07 PM EDT
MightyMait

And when you find any objective evidence for spirit/soul/ether, you be sure to let us all know.

We've been through this before. "Objectivity" is a farce. Reality is subjective. What passes for "objective evidence" is really interpretations of sensations.

Right now, we have objective evidence for the biological basis for emotional response in the form of hormones and neurotransmitters.

That may be. All emotions aren't necessarily "spiritual". In fact, it's pretty safe to say that most sentiments are not. That said, are we certain the hormonal and neurological responses aren't the *effect* of shifting consciousness and not the cause? I see consciousness as being at the boundary of matter and spirit. As such, biochemical reactions might affect consciousness (well, they definitely *do* as evidenced by psychotropic drugs) as well as consciousness affecting matter.

Let the most able-bodied among them explore the elephant and report back.

They *have*. People like Buddha, Jesus, Vyasdev, etc. It's usually the atheists who are complaining that they don't want a truth they can't verify for themselves. Of course most atheists wouldn't even bother to try to reproduce the results of the great mystics.

Who is claiming this?

It's a claim that many atheists seem to enjoy painting theists with.

right now we have a pretty good way of arriving at knowledge in the "mundane" realm.

"Pretty good", indeed. Far from perfect; and even farther from perfect are many of the emphases of scientific inquiry (like how to cheat nature though pharmacological means).

  • 3 votes
#1.12 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 8:14 PM EDT
MightyMait

In addition to what spiffie said, the evolutionary advantages of this trait have also been explored to great effect.

Thanks for the book recommendation. However, perceived "evolutionary advantages" of empathy are rationalizations, not evidence for empathy being biological in origin.

One of them has to be wrong. And then there's the fact that both of them say you're going to hell if you're not part of that religion, but will be rewarded if you are. Again, can't have both at the same time.

Is light a particle or a wave? It can't be both, right?

There is a plane of reality that transcends "right" and "wrong". It is a plane without limits (Vaikuntha in Sanskrit literally means "without limits"). Reality isn't black and white (binary). Just as there are many hells, there are many heavens. Also, one person's heaven may be another's hell.

Paradoxes reveal the limitations of logical, rational thought.

That said (the idealist in my likes to believe that everybody can be right--reality is *that* accommodating), religious expressions of partial pictures of reality will be imperfect (though still useful). Just because a scientific model may be incomplete (and how many scientific models are complete?), does that make it useless?

  • 2 votes
#1.13 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 8:20 PM EDT
Danny McGee

That may be. All emotions aren't necessarily "spiritual". In fact, it's pretty safe to say that most sentiments are not. That said, are we certain the hormonal and neurological responses aren't the *effect* of shifting consciousness and not the cause? I see consciousness as being at the boundary of matter and spirit. As such, biochemical reactions might affect consciousness (well, they definitely *do* as evidenced by psychotropic drugs) as well as consciousness affecting matter.

There is an easy experiment to test this: Destroy the brain, and see if consciousness persists. Science has shown over and over and over again that when brain functions decline, so also does the consciousness that goes with it. You need look no further than a coma patient or someone who has suffered severe brain damage: Their ability to perceive, understand and react to the world around them is inhibited with direct correlation to how extensive the damage is.

  • 3 votes
#1.14 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 8:43 PM EDT
Danny McGee

Is light a particle or a wave? It can't be both, right?

Yes, it can, and it is. :) Just because we don't fully understand it doesn't mean it hasn't been exhaustively researched and found to be true. (Interestingly enough, this is one of the things I mention in the article I'm writing as we speak, so for a second I was confused and had to read the blockquote again because I thought you were responding to something I hadn't even published yet.)

If you want to use a science analogy, Schrodinger's cat is a much better one, but it's called a "paradox" for a reason. The particle-wave duality of light isn't paradoxical, it's just odd and confusing. You find me the person who believes that all Christians and Muslims are both going to heaven and hell at the same time to be both rewarded and punished for their belief and nonbelief simultaneously and they will have my commendations, but that still doesn't mean they have any actual evidence for any of it.

  • 5 votes
#1.15 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 8:52 PM EDT
spiffie

We've been through this before.

We have been through this before. As I recall it, you fared quite poorly, eventually refused to address the points made by myself, Adam, Jack, and iarn, and retreated to some New Age, crystal power psycho-spirituality.

"Objectivity" is a farce. Reality is subjective. What passes for "objective evidence" is really interpretations of sensations.

I'm honestly beginning to believe you have no idea what "objective" means.

Again (since we covered this before) you ignore instrumentation which can be independently observed by different individuals. You can be colorblind and I can be color-sighted. That means you might look at a color swatch of red and see it differently than I do. But I get a $40 Pantone colormeter, and we can independently, objectively confirm the spectra of light being reflected from the surface of the swatch.

That may be. All emotions aren't necessarily "spiritual".

Tell you what: you come up with a way to determine which are spiritual and which aren't, and we'll talk again.

That said, are we certain the hormonal and neurological responses aren't the *effect* of shifting consciousness and not the cause?

Did you not see the comment about certainty up above? Science is not about certainty. That word doesn't even belong in this context. Science is about dealing with differing levels of uncertainty. Having said that, when there is zero objective evidence for a hypothesis, we can say the uncertainty is almost absolute. I could also theorize that pink fairies fly down from the clouds and sprinkle sprite-dust on my head to make me sad, but that has about as much evidence as your contention of some boundary between matter and spirit.

They *have*. People like Buddha, Jesus, Vyasdev, etc. It's usually the atheists who are complaining that they don't want a truth they can't verify for themselves. Of course most atheists wouldn't even bother to try to reproduce the results of the great mystics.

It's not about me doing anything (although I was raised Catholic, and I did pray and pray and pray at one point; just not for me). When you can do what Jesus could do, why don't you call Letterman and I'll see you there? Clearly you believe this stuff. Why don't you try it out and prove us all wrong?

It's a claim that many atheists seem to enjoy painting theists with.

If they are so many, then you should be able to back up the claim. Go ahead, I have all evening.

"Pretty good", indeed. Far from perfect;

Given that imperfection is obvious and apparent in everything we've ever observed in this universe, I have to wonder why you would think our process of arriving at knowledge would ever be perfect. The great thing about science is that it's not (over the long term) closed to admitting it was wrong. The basic assumptions underlying the philosophy of science is that all science is "wrong" right now, we're just constantly working on making it less wrong. It's an ongoing process. How many other philosophies take that view?

  • 4 votes
#1.16 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 8:58 PM EDT
spiffie

Is light a particle or a wave? It can't be both, right?

Light can, but light isn't making a specific claim. Light just is the way it is. Christianity and Islam (and other religions) aren't "just" being; they're a specific group of claims about the way the universe is that are either right or wrong. Either Jesus was divine or he wasn't. Either Mohammed was bodily assumed into Heaven at the Temple Mount or he wasn't. Either Joseph Smith received golden plates containing the words of God or he didn't.

Specific claims are ideas that either have evidence backing them up or they don't. There is no way for the total collection of religious claims (often the total collection of claims within the same religion) to all be true.

  • 5 votes
#1.17 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 9:04 PM EDT
Adam Kemp

As I've explained to you before, light is neither a wave nor a particle. It has properties of both.

  • 5 votes
#1.18 - Fri Sep 5, 2008 12:17 AM EDT
MightyMait

Their ability to perceive, understand and react to the world around them is inhibited with direct correlation to how extensive the damage is.

Right. However, to assume that, because the brain has been damaged or destroyed, the consciousness itself has been destroyed is a leap. The brain may be the interface between spirit, consciousness, and matter, but it is still not necessarily the source.

You find me the person who believes that all Christians and Muslims are both going to heaven and hell at the same time to be both rewarded and punished for their belief and nonbelief simultaneously and they will have my commendations, but that still doesn't mean they have any actual evidence for any of it.

I've been taught than any sincere followers of divinely-inspired (and yes, how one determines which religions are divinely-inspired is not trivial--at least not from the empiric perspective) religion will attain their objective. As for hell, I don't believe in hell everlasting (not in the sense that most Christians seem to). That doesn't invalidate Christianity as a spiritual path, however. Various religions resonate with peoples of various temperaments at various stages of conscious evolution. Even in science education we see many simplifications made for the purpose of instruction at elementary levels. As a student progresses in their education they can, if they have the patience, come to examine phenomena using non-linear equations (maybe partially differential) as opposed to the linear approximations taught to neophytes. Because science resorts to simplifications at times doesn't invalidate *it* as a means to seek truth.

As I recall it, you fared quite poorly, eventually refused to address the points made by myself, Adam, Jack, and iarn, and retreated to some New Age, crystal power psycho-spirituality.

I have only limited patience for going around in circles.

I'm honestly beginning to believe you have no idea what "objective" means.

Again (since we covered this before) you ignore instrumentation which can be independently observed by different individuals. You can be colorblind and I can be color-sighted. That means you might look at a color swatch of red and see it differently than I do. But I get a $40 Pantone colormeter, and we can independently, objectively confirm the spectra of light being reflected from the surface of the swatch.

What does objective mean?

No two platinum reference kilos in the world have exactly the same mass. You're going to tell me that every $40 Pantone colormeter produced is exactly calibrated? No, it's a question of "good enough". There is no true objectivity, there is just a reasonable approximation of objectivity that we accept as "good enough".

Tell you what: you come up with a way to determine which are spiritual and which aren't, and we'll talk again.

Well, from an absolute perspective, *everything* is spiritual (just as all mass is energy). When it comes to navigating on this plane of relativity, however, making distinctions between spiritual and mundane/material can be useful. A guideline for distinguishing between "spiritual" and "material" is that spiritual things are sat-chit-ananda (eternal/conscious/blissful) where-as material things are not.

If they are so many, then you should be able to back up the claim. Go ahead, I have all evening.

At this point, I won't bother. It's something I see (how can you not?) on Newsvine with great regularity.

Clearly you believe this stuff. Why don't you try it out and prove us all wrong?

I wish I could say I *do* believe it. Rather, I find many of these spiritual principles to be beautiful and compellingly attractive. I'm willing to suspend my disbelief in order to more closely examine them. In my own half-assed way, I'm trying to live by them. As for proving anybody wrong, I don't see the utility in that. Rather, I see many benevolent enlightened ones lovingly and patiently inviting us to abandon our crutches of logic and reason and to plunge into the endlessly joyful world of faith.

As I've explained to you before, light is neither a wave nor a particle. It has properties of both.

Exactly. The point being made here is that reality isn't binary. It's not all about right and wrong when it comes to religious/spiritual conceptions (or just about anything). God might have revealed one thing to Joseph Smith based on his capacity to understand it and something else to Veda Vyas based on *his* capacity. It's not about right and wrong, it's about gradations, time, place, and circumstance.

  • 3 votes
#1.19 - Fri Sep 5, 2008 3:10 PM EDT
MightyMait

I wanted to clarify one point just in case I didn't make it clear earlier.

I see religious cosmologies (heaven/hell, etc.) as models of reality. As with scientific models, they don't have to be perfect in order to be useful.

Let's take climate models, for instance. While they've gotten more sophisticated as time progresses, none can be said to come close to representing the full complexity of actual climate systems. Does that mean that these models are useless? On the contrary, they are one of the primary bases for claims that the observed global warming is anthropogenic in nature.

  • 2 votes
#1.20 - Fri Sep 5, 2008 3:26 PM EDT
spiffie

What does objective mean?

What do you think it means?

No two platinum reference kilos in the world have exactly the same mass. You're going to tell me that every $40 Pantone colormeter produced is exactly calibrated? No, it's a question of "good enough". There is no true objectivity, there is just a reasonable approximation of objectivity that we accept as "good enough".

We now have the ability to distinguish between two masses or two spectra signatures to a nearly arbitrary degree of precision (and certainly to a degree of precision that is far beyond the ability of any human to distinguish unaided). It's simply ludicrous to try to wave your hands and imply that this degree of "good enough" is not sufficient to draw valid conclusions about the natural world. This is especially the case when you want to draw conclusions about the universe for about which you have no claim to objective knowledge, and can merely assert some spooky "spirit/mass barrier".

Well, from an absolute perspective, *everything* is spiritual (just as all mass is energy).

Evidence? I'm not even looking for proof, I'm just looking for any evidence that this is the case. Mere assertion is not an argument.

When it comes to navigating on this plane of relativity, however, making distinctions between spiritual and mundane/material can be useful.

Evidence? When is it, exactly, that this distinction is useful?

A guideline for distinguishing between "spiritual" and "material" is that spiritual things are sat-chit-ananda (eternal/conscious/blissful) where-as material things are not.

Evidence? It sounds like you're back to crystal power.

It's something I see (how can you not?) on Newsvine with great regularity.

Hey, of the two of us, you're the one who clearly believes in things that are invisible. Why is it such a surprise that you're probably seeing things that aren't there?

  • 3 votes
#1.21 - Fri Sep 5, 2008 3:27 PM EDT
JeanCauvin5

Danny

As for the elephant analogy: The biggest problem I'm seeing with it is that a trunk and a leg are not mutually exclusive properties. . . You can't say that they both just have "incomplete" parts of the big picture. One of them has to be wrong.

and spiffie

There is no way for the total collection of religious claims (often the total collection of claims within the same religion) to all be true.

Am in 100% agreement with you--coming from the opposite side. ;)

  • 3 votes
#1.22 - Fri Sep 5, 2008 8:02 PM EDT
Adam Kemp

Exactly. The point being made here is that reality isn't binary.

You're confused again. You asked "is light a wave or a particle?". There are really two questions being asked, both of which are either true or false. Thus the question asked is not binary, but the broken-up statements "light is a wave" and "light is a particle" are binary. They're either true or false. My answer was simple: they're both false.

You're trying to claim that there is no objective reality by making two separate claims, both of which are false, and then when someone points out that they're both false you say "aha! reality isn't binary!". I don't even really know what it would mean for reality to be "binary", but reality is objective, and the answer to your question was simple.

It's like me asking "are apples green or red?". The answer is "yes" (they can be either green or red). The two are not mutually exclusive. That's called a false dichotomy, and it's not really an argument for anything other than your inability to ask a meaningful question.

  • 5 votes
#1.23 - Fri Sep 5, 2008 10:27 PM EDT
MightyMait

You're confused again. You asked "is light a wave or a particle?". There are really two questions being asked, both of which are either true or false. Thus the question asked is not binary, but the broken-up statements "light is a wave" and "light is a particle" are binary. They're either true or false. My answer was simple: they're both false.

Then your answer is an oversimplification (as are your views of religion). Light certainly *does* exhibit the qualities of a particle under certain circumstances as does it exhibit the properties of a wave under other circumstances.

That's called a false dichotomy, and it's not really an argument for anything other than your inability to ask a meaningful question.

The point being illustrated is that the tenets of a religion don't all have to be 100% valid for the religion to be a worthwhile path towards purity.

To say that either this religion is valid or *that* religion is valid is also a false dichotomy.

  • 1 vote
#1.24 - Tue Sep 9, 2008 5:28 PM EDT
MightyMait

I missed this reply.

It's simply ludicrous to try to wave your hands and imply that this degree of "good enough" is not sufficient to draw valid conclusions about the natural world.

Regardless of the precision of our instruments, it's simply ludicrous to assume that only things which we can measure exist and there is nothing which escapes our measurement.

Evidence? I'm not even looking for proof, I'm just looking for any evidence that this is the case. Mere assertion is not an argument.

What's the use of trying to present evidence? Any evidence I might suggest you would dismiss based on materialistic assumptions.

Evidence? When is it, exactly, that this distinction is useful?

It's useful for one who is on a spiritual path. It's useful for one who is contemplating life and death.

Hey, of the two of us, you're the one who clearly believes in things that are invisible. Why is it such a surprise that you're probably seeing things that aren't there?

You don't believe in infrared and ultraviolet? You don't believe in X-Rays and microwaves?

  • 1 vote
#1.25 - Tue Sep 9, 2008 6:05 PM EDT
Adam Kemp

Light certainly *does* exhibit the qualities of a particle under certain circumstances as does it exhibit the properties of a wave under other circumstances.

Yes, it does exhibit properties of both. And yet, light is not a particle, and light is not a wave. You didn't ask whether light behaves like a particle or behaves like a wave. If you had, then the answer would be "yes" to both questions. Either way, it's your question which is flawed. My answer must be nuanced because your question is misleading.

To say that either this religion is valid or *that* religion is valid is also a false dichotomy.

The entire issue of which religion is "valid" is entirely beside the point. I'm not discussion which religion is valid. Take each individual claim from each individual religion separately. Look at those claims and figure out "can this claim be falsified?". If the answer is "no" then the claim must be rejected because it is entirely arbitrary, and thus entirely useless.

  • 4 votes
#1.26 - Tue Sep 9, 2008 7:47 PM EDT
dark.energy363

Well done, dont be too hard on yourself. It takes courage just to admit non conformity in such a religiously toxic environment here in this country. I having been raised in the church only recently "opened" my eyes/mind. I have never been more alive. I couldn't agree more that now I value life even more as there is no "safety net" as proposed by religion. I can only hope more will soon come to realize and reject "The greatest lie ever perpetuated on mankind". So much grief has religion wrought.

  • 2 votes
#1.27 - Fri Sep 26, 2008 2:32 PM EDT
MightyMait

So much grief has religion wrought.

And science is quickly outstripping religion in the grief-wroughting department (if it has not already).

  • 1 vote
#1.28 - Fri Sep 26, 2008 6:45 PM EDT
Danny McGee

Thanks for the compliments, dark energy.

And science is quickly outstripping religion in the grief-wroughting department (if it has not already).

What in the world are you talking about?

  • 1 vote
#1.29 - Fri Sep 26, 2008 7:30 PM EDT
MightyMait

What in the world are you talking about?

You're kidding, right?

Scientific warfare (including nuclear weapons), denatured food (due to use of preservatives, petrochemical fertilizers and pesticides), pollution, etc., etc., etc., are all bitter fruits of science.

    #1.30 - Fri Sep 26, 2008 7:57 PM EDT
    Adam Kemp

    Science is merely a method of finding knowledge. Science does not have anything to do with how that knowledge is used. If you want to argue that we should all remain ignorant because we might possibly learn something that we could use to hurt ourselves then go ahead, but be honest about what you're promoting. Science doesn't do anything but teach us about the world. It doesn't promote the use of pesticides. It doesn't promote the use of nuclear weapons. It doesn't do any of the bad things you've attributed to it. Science is about knowledge and nothing more.

    Religion, however, actually promotes actions. Religions often directly promote conflict and hostility. Religions don't merely tell people about the nature of the universe (ignoring the fact that those claims are completely untestable and useless), but they also tell people what to do. That's a fundamental difference between religion and science which destroys your attempt at comparing them. Science doesn't ever tell people what to do, but religion nearly always does. And to make matters worse, those instructions are usually followed by threats of eternal damnation for those who fail to obey and/or eternal reward for those who do.

    • 3 votes
    #1.31 - Sat Sep 27, 2008 12:14 AM EDT
    jpark

    Surely you jest Adam.

    The scientific method is a method of acquiring knowledge, but science is all about the application of knowledge -- not just acquiring it.

    The space program is an example of the application of science. We placed men on the moon through science and probes throughout the solar system and beyond.

    Rocket scientists don't just develop formulae. The build rockets.

    Physicists don't just develop formulae. The build the Large Hadron Collider.

    Biologists don't just study biology, they modify it.

    • 2 votes
    #1.32 - Sat Sep 27, 2008 1:39 AM EDT
    Adam Kemp

    The scientific method is a method of acquiring knowledge, but science is all about the application of knowledge -- not just acquiring it.

    The only thing science applies knowledge to is gaining new knowledge. Science has nothing to do with making new inventions or technology. That would be engineering. Building rockets and LHCs and so on is engineering, not science. Those are actually different. They may interact often, but they are not the same thing.

    • 3 votes
    #1.33 - Sat Sep 27, 2008 1:46 AM EDT
    Danny McGee

    Scientific warfare (including nuclear weapons),

    "Scientific warfare"? Please. There is warfare, using weapons that have been developed through science, but that hardly makes it "scientific warfare." Wars have always been about religion, politics, or resources. You'd be hard pressed to find a war that occurred over science.

    denatured food (due to use of preservatives, petrochemical fertilizers and pesticides),

    I'd love to see some evidence of harm from modified food products.

    pollution

    Granted, but this is also a problem which further science can solve, and could have contributed to significantly years ago with the electric car, had the car manufacturers not pulled them all off the market under pressure from oil industries.

    • 2 votes
    #1.34 - Sat Sep 27, 2008 11:07 AM EDT
    jpark

    I'd love to see some evidence of harm from modified food products.

    Google 'trans fat'.

    • 3 votes
    #1.35 - Sat Sep 27, 2008 11:47 AM EDT
    MightyMait

    If you want to argue that we should all remain ignorant because we might possibly learn something that we could use to hurt ourselves then go ahead, but be honest about what you're promoting.

    Not at all. I'm not arguing against science. I'm arguing against materialism. As you say, science is a tool to acquire knowledge. For the average materialist, science takes on religious/dogmatic significance. In the theistic conception I study, there is the concept of "yukta-vairagya" (have I mentioned it in this discussion? (looks like I have not yet done so)) which loosely translates as "proper use of everything".

    So, just what constitutes proper use, one might ask? Service of God, we are told. If God is the center of everything, we ought to serve the center. Just as watering the leaves of a tree doesn't do as much to benefit entire tree as does watering the roots, our highest benefit is not to be found in serving our own whims, but in serving God.

    Of course, that leads to the question: how do we serve God? Certainly, as has been stated in the Christian and other traditions, serving humanity can be seen as serving God, depending on the devotional mood of the servitor. But, simply serving humanity, while a noble endeavor, isn't exactly serving God, since God is so much more than just humanity.

    Before I ramble on too much, let me summarize that, whatever we do, it will find perfection when performed as service to the Supreme Lord (and Lady). So, a God-conscious scientist (however diligently adhering to the scientific method) will bring more peace, harmony, joy, and love to the world than one operating purely due to materialistic motivations.

    As an example of such a scientist, I can mention Richard L. Thompson, recently deceased, who earned a Ph.D. from Cornell, and whose work has been quoted by Nobel Prize winning physicist Brian Josephson.

    Religion, however, actually promotes actions. Religions often directly promote conflict and hostility.

    I agree with jpark's comments regarding this. In addition, if we're contrasting theism/spirituality (as opposed to religion) and materialism/empiricism as ways of looking at existence, then there is no question of promoting actions. Viewing everything as being part of God calls for no specific action, though a natural consequence is to treat everything with a greater sense of wonder and reverence.

    The only thing science applies knowledge to is gaining new knowledge.

    Now you're anthropomorphizing science, aren't you? Science doesn't apply science, scientists do. Scientists with beliefs, assumptions, attitudes, prejudices, flaws, strengths, emotions, etc.

    Of course, when the aim of the scientist is simply to further knowledge without concern for how such knowledge is practically applied, the door is opened for all of the abuses of scientific knowledge which we've observed.

    "Scientific warfare"? Please. There is warfare, using weapons that have been developed through science, but that hardly makes it "scientific warfare."

    The principles of science have been applied to more effectively waging war. That makes it scientific. To say that science isn't the motivation for war is an evasion of this simple fact.

    Granted, but this is also a problem which further science can solve

    Perhaps. However, so often (as in the case of one of my favorite examples of scientific folly--thalidomide) the solution ends up being worse than the problem it is intended to remedy.

    Google 'trans fat'.

    Good point. If I may add, "conventionally" grown foods are well-known to be deficient (in comparison to organically-grown food) when it comes to trace elements and minerals of whose crucial role in healthy functioning of the human body we are increasingly becoming aware (boy, is that some tortured grammar?). This is yet another example of the limitations of non-holistic, reductionist thinking (that all we need to thrive is a handful of (known) vitamins, some carbohydrates, and protein).

      #1.36 - Mon Sep 29, 2008 6:56 PM EDT
      Adam Kemp

      For the average materialist, science takes on religious/dogmatic significance.

      Not by any normal definition of "religious" or "dogmatic".

      Before I ramble on too much, let me summarize that, whatever we do, it will find perfection when performed as service to the Supreme Lord (and Lady). So, a God-conscious scientist (however diligently adhering to the scientific method) will bring more peace, harmony, joy, and love to the world than one operating purely due to materialistic motivations.

      This is meaningless nonsense. Literally. Nothing you just said makes sense or has any real meaning whatsoever. It's just feel-good religious drivel.

      Now you're anthropomorphizing science, aren't you? Science doesn't apply science, scientists do.

      You're nitpicking. The meaning was clear. If you want to nitpick based on that, though, then your entire argument falls apart. Science can't hurt anything. Only scientists can. The point, though, is that science as a method can not possibly cause harm. All of the things you've complained about coming from science don't have anything to do with science. Science doesn't promote the use of pesticides. Science can be used to discover ways to make new pesticides, but it doesn't actually have anything to do with whether or not they're used. The knowledge is independent of the application of that knowledge. Knowing something is not dangerous in itself.

      Thus you are the one who is misusing the word science here by blaming it for things which it had nothing to do with.

      The principles of science have been applied to more effectively waging war. That makes it scientific.

      Name an example of the scientific method being applied to warfare.

      • 2 votes
      #1.37 - Mon Sep 29, 2008 7:32 PM EDT
      MightyMait

      This is meaningless nonsense. Literally. Nothing you just said makes sense or has any real meaning whatsoever. It's just feel-good religious drivel.

      Only to one shackled by the world-view of empiricism.

      Here's a verse I just came across in my reading that concisely states the point of view I was trying to express:

      Knowledge of self-realization, even though free from all material affinity, does not look well if devoid of a conception of the Infallible [God]. What, then, is the use of fruitive activities, which are naturally painful from the very beginning and transient by nature, if they are not utilized for the devotional service of the Lord?

      As for feeling good, what's wrong with feeling good? Do we have to rid ourselves of emotion to find meaning?

      Science can't hurt anything. Only scientists can. The point, though, is that science as a method can not possibly cause harm.

      The same reasoning applies to theism. Theism can't hurt anything, only religious dogmatists.

      Name an example of the scientific method being applied to warfare.

      You have got to be joking!!!

      Have you heard of the various laboratories developing and studying chemical and biological warfare?

      How about this one?

      Los Alamos, anyone?

      Lawrence Livermore?

        #1.38 - Mon Sep 29, 2008 7:51 PM EDT
        MightyMait

        A couple more relevant verses from the same source:

        SB 1.5.14: Whatever you desire to describe that is separate in vision from the Lord simply reacts, with different forms, names and results, to agitate the mind as the wind agitates a boat which has no resting place.

        and

        SB 1.5.34: Thus when all a man's activities are dedicated to the service of the Lord, those very activities which caused his perpetual bondage become the destroyer of the tree of work.

        So, if our actions are guided by mundane selfish (or extended selfish) interests, we feed the fire of mundane desire--our desires multiply. If we perform the very same actions as offerings to the All-in-All, they become the path to liberation from our mundane cares.

        So, be a scientist, engineer, doctor, tailor, grave-digger, etc., but do so in a mood of devotion and reverence to the Supreme, and true peace and fulfillment await (I say that to my own ravenous mind as much to anybody else).

          #1.39 - Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:22 PM EDT
          Adam Kemp

          Only to one shackled by the world-view of empiricism.

          You mean world-view of reality, right? This is absolutely moronic. How about this. From now on, anytime you use a bull@!$%# spiritual claim with no basis in reality I get to use one too. I'll start with "the path to enlightenment is through caffeine". Prove me wrong. See how easy it is to just make @!$%# up? The best part is that my claim is just as valid as yours since neither of them have anything to do with reality.

          Have you heard of the various laboratories developing and studying chemical and biological warfare?

          I just explained to you how that is not science. You're not paying attention. The scientific method cannot be used to invent things. That's engineering. Not science. Engineers use knowledge gained from science, but engineering is its own field. Scientists discover. Engineers invent/create.

          Try again.

          • 1 vote
          #1.40 - Tue Sep 30, 2008 4:00 AM EDT
          renderedtruthDeleted
          Reply
          Eric Atienza

          Well thought out on a very touchy subject around here. Good work.

          • 4 votes
          Reply#2 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 7:46 AM EDT
          jameseg

          You make many good points. I especially like your concepts of empathy and self-improvement.

          In your analogy about the room, you admit that "I don't know" what's outside of it, thus making you an agnostic (as you acknowledge). Therefore, since neither I as a Christian, nor you as an atheist, know what's outside of our known universe, we both accept our beliefs by faith.

          I think an unabridged dictionary would have among its many definitions of God one that even you as an atheist might agree with, and it might not be much different from my own definition as an ecumenical Christian. Each of us in one way or another submits to a righteous authority higher and more knowlegeable than ourselves. I think I would be willing to vote for a person who accepts atheism as long as he or she is willing to submit to such righteous authority when it manifests itself.

          Thanks for writing a thought-provoking piece.

          • 3 votes
          #3 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 10:14 AM EDT
          Danny McGee

          Therefore, since neither I as a Christian, nor you as an atheist, know what's outside of our known universe, we both accept our beliefs by faith.

          I'm not sure what you mean by "we both accept our beliefs by faith." If I have no beliefs ("agnostic" literally means "without knowledge") how can I be accepting them on faith?

          I think an unabridged dictionary would have among its many definitions of God one that even you as an atheist might agree with

          Thing is, it's not about "agreeing with" a definition of God. I think the story at the base of Christianity is beautiful and poetic and I could probably modify a version of it that would be quite "agreeable" to me, but that still doesn't mean it would bear the evidence necessary to compel my belief. When you say you believe in something, you're not just putting your stamp of approval on it, you're saying, "Yes, I think that is true." As a skeptic and an empiricist, I don't put my belief in any concept without sufficient empirical evidence.

          • 4 votes
          #3.1 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 1:48 PM EDT
          Adam Kemp

          You don't need to faith to reject a claim without evidence. That's just common sense.

          • 4 votes
          #3.2 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 2:06 PM EDT
          MightyMait

          You don't need to faith to reject a claim without evidence.

          You need faith to accept "evidence" as being valid, though.

          • 1 vote
          #3.3 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 6:30 PM EDT
          Adam Kemp

          Only if you consider the statement "I exist" to be faith, in which case the word loses all relevance.

          • 5 votes
          #3.4 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 6:45 PM EDT
          MightyMait

          Only if you consider the statement "I exist" to be faith, in which case the word loses all relevance.

          I don't see what existence has to do with whether any given evidence is valid. To the extent that all "empiric" evidence is gathered via imperfect senses and their imperfect extensions (instruments), *all* evidence is suspect.

          • 1 vote
          #3.5 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 6:51 PM EDT
          Adam Kemp

          How do you know you exist? You claim all evidence is unreliable, and you need faith to accept all evidence, so that would mean that you need faith to accept your own existence. At that point "faith" is meaningless because it can't distinguish between one belief and any other.

          • 5 votes
          #3.6 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 7:34 PM EDT
          Danny McGee

          Ah, I had figured I might come across this argument.

          Yes, I operate under the assumption that I exist and that my senses are reasonably accurate within their respective domains. I accept this, without evidence, as an a priori presupposition. So does every other human being in the universe. Even people who believe that life is just an illusion and nothing is real demonstrate their hypocrisy by eating, drinking and breathing to sustain their own life. If you really feel hellbent on calling me a person of faith, you can go ahead and call it faith. Just know that by doing so you're cheapening the definition of "faith" to the point of absolute meaninglessness. If everything is faith, nothing is faith and faith is nothing.

          • 3 votes
          #3.7 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 8:21 PM EDT
          MightyMait

          You claim all evidence is unreliable

          Certainly all evidence gathered through imperfect senses is unreliable. Evidence gathered by means of spiritual resonance is *more* reliable (if not perfect).

          • 1 vote
          #3.8 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 8:26 PM EDT
          Danny McGee

          Evidence gathered by means of spiritual resonance is *more* reliable (if not perfect).

          What reason do you have to believe this?

          • 3 votes
          #3.9 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 8:39 PM EDT
          Adam Kemp

          Evidence gathered by means of spiritual resonance is *more* reliable (if not perfect).

          What kind of "evidence" would that be? What is "spiritual resonance"? What makes it reliable? How can you even use the word "reliable" while denying the objectivity of reality, which is necessary for the word "reliable" to have any meaning?

          • 3 votes
          #3.10 - Fri Sep 5, 2008 12:20 AM EDT
          MightyMait

          What reason do you have to believe this?

          It's not reason, it's faith. In our own experiences beauty is so much stronger than reason. (Myth or otherwise,) it was a beautiful face that launched a thousand ships to sail to Troy. Beauty makes folks abandon their reason and surrender to the beautiful.

          Beauty *compels* me to believe.

          What kind of "evidence" would that be? What is "spiritual resonance"? What makes it reliable?

          "Reliable"? Reliability is boring (though I prefer my car to be reliable, admittedly). We want to be surprised and delighted. It is the exception that is most illuminating. Transcendent beauty is spiritual resonance. For the surrendered soul, God is not expected to be reliable (though the surrendered soul relies completely on the whim of the Lord). The surrendered soul says, "You know better than I do what I need. Love me, hate me, shower me with fortune or beat me mercilessly, but never leave me."

          Reason, reliability, etc. are cages that trap us.

          • 1 vote
          #3.11 - Fri Sep 5, 2008 3:16 PM EDT
          Adam Kemp

          I hate to break it to you, MightyMait, but you used the word "reliable":

          Evidence gathered by means of spiritual resonance is *more* reliable (if not perfect).

          Interesting that when challenged to support that you wave your hands around and try to dodge the issue.

          Also, I'd like to see you use faith or beauty to cure a disease. Which do you think will be more effective: your faith, or science and reason? Would you go to a doctor who practiced "faith-based medicine" if you had a serious (but curable) disease?

          • 6 votes
          #3.12 - Fri Sep 5, 2008 10:32 PM EDT
          MightyMait

          I hate to break it to you, MightyMait, but you used the word "reliable":

          As I said, it's nice to have a reliable car.

          Interesting that when challenged to support that you wave your hands around and try to dodge the issue.

          Well, the question is: just what is the issue?

          Here's an analogy: Let's say I walk into a room and there's a PC in there with World of Warcraft running on it. I've never played World of Warcraft or even seen it, but I sit down and start messing around with the mouse and keyboard. Over time, I could use logic and reason to deduce the rules governing the game and the mechanisms by which I could accomplish things in the game. Gradually, I'd become more and more adept at playing World of Warcraft. After enough time and sleep deprivation, I might even start to believe that World of Warcraft is reality. But is it?

          This relative plane is made up of illusion. It's a game. There are certain rules. We can spend our entire lives under illusion trying to figure out the rules of the game, but isn't our time better spent focusing on trying to transcend the illusion and becoming aware of higher realities?

          Also, I'd like to see you use faith or beauty to cure a disease. Which do you think will be more effective: your faith, or science and reason? Would you go to a doctor who practiced "faith-based medicine" if you had a serious (but curable) disease?

          The primary disease afflicting us all is identifying these bodies with our selves. That said, I'm still pretty attached to this particular body. However, if I found out I had cancer (which would probably be diagnosed by an MD), I doubt I'd be subjecting myself to the typical AMA-approved cancer treatments. Rather, I'd be fasting, eating only the purest, freshest foods, exercising as much as possible and seeking traditional treatments. Faith doesn't hurt either. After all, it's people's faith in AMA-certified MD's that has a lot to do with them surviving being poisoned by them.

          • 1 vote
          #3.13 - Tue Sep 9, 2008 5:46 PM EDT
          Danny McGee

          This relative plane is made up of illusion. It's a game. There are certain rules. We can spend our entire lives under illusion trying to figure out the rules of the game, but isn't our time better spent focusing on trying to transcend the illusion and becoming aware of higher realities?

          Sure, if the higher realities actually exist and if the one you're in is an illusion. Since I have no reason to believe either of those things I'm all well and good exploring the world I can experience with my senses.

          • 3 votes
          #3.14 - Tue Sep 9, 2008 6:50 PM EDT
          Adam Kemp

          If there are higher realities then you have to show that they exist. If you don't believe that's possible then it doesn't even matter. What good is believing in higher realities if they don't have any effect?

          The primary disease afflicting us all is identifying these bodies with our selves.

          Blah, blah, blah. All talk, no substance. You have no evidence for anything other than physical reality. Period.

          • 2 votes
          #3.15 - Tue Sep 9, 2008 7:50 PM EDT
          MightyMait

          II'm all well and good exploring the world I can experience with my senses.

          I'm happy if you're happy.

          I live in the same phenomenal world as we all do. I study the same science (admittedly, not in the same depth as some who frequent these discussions). From what I've seen, I have no reason to believe that this is all that there is.

          One more point about reliability, Adam. Perhaps you saw this recent article or one like it?

          We've long thought that nuclear decay rates are constant regardless of ambient conditions (except in a few special cases where beta decay can be influenced by powerful electric fields). So that makes it hard to explain two puzzling experiments from the 1980s that found periodic variations over many years in the decay rates of silicon-32 and radium-226. Now a new analysis of the raw data says that changes in the decay rate are synchronized with each other and with Earth's distance from the sun.

          Objectivity is a noble goal. So is reliability. I fear they're both losing battles, though.

          • 1 vote
          #3.16 - Tue Sep 9, 2008 7:54 PM EDT
          Adam Kemp

          The decay rates are synchronized with each other. Sounds reliable to me.

          • 3 votes
          #3.17 - Tue Sep 9, 2008 8:04 PM EDT
          MightyMait

          The decay rates are synchronized with each other. Sounds reliable to me.

          Only once we know what the unknown factor is. Until then, we are baffled and our results are inconsistent. This is but a single, timely example. How many more phenomena are there like this waiting to be discovered (if they ever are)?

          To explain further. "Objectivity" assumes independence from bias. When everything seems to be interrelate, how can there be any true independence.

          Also, another factor I've yet to mention in this discussion: conditioning. We are all conditioned souls (beings, what-have-you). From birth, we are conditioned to view the world in certain ways. Our formal education certainly conditions us all in similar ways (or different ways depending on our choice of academic discipline). Considering that, how independent can "independent" verification ever truly be? Perhaps what passes for "independent verification" is really repeatability of faulty methodology.

          Beyond that, on a very fundamental level, we are conditioned to ignore sensory input which doesn't adhere to our world views. We filter out perhaps 90% of the flood of data provided to us by our senses. Who knows what we're missing with our tunnel vision?

          • 1 vote
          #3.18 - Wed Sep 10, 2008 12:14 PM EDT
          MightyMait

          "everything seems to be interrelated", that is, and end the sentence with a question mark.

          • 1 vote
          #3.19 - Wed Sep 10, 2008 12:20 PM EDT
          Adam Kemp

          If something happens the same way every time then that is the definition of reliable. It doesn't matter if we know why it happens that way.

          Let me give another example. Newton's laws of motion held for centuries. They predicted the movement of physical objects very well. Unfortunately, they didn't seem to work well for the movement of some planets. Newton's laws didn't predict that motion as well. We didn't know why. Does that mean Newton's laws were unreliable? Not at all. They were perfectly reliable given certain conditions. When we looked beyond those conditions the laws failed, and we had to figure out why. Einstein finally did that by coming up with relativity. Einstein's discovery didn't make Newton's laws suddenly stop working. They just expanded our understanding to cover more situations. In every case in which Newton's laws worked they still work just as well as they ever did.

          Considering that, how independent can "independent" verification ever truly be?

          In science we don't rely on human senses to take measurements or perform experiments. We use inanimate scientific instruments which produce the same results over and over and over again. Unless you want to argue that my "perception" is going to make a digital multimeter read 5V instead of 6V then you don't really have anything to go off here. It's not perception that makes that reading show 5V every time. It reads that every time because that's what the actual, objective value is.

          • 2 votes
          #3.20 - Wed Sep 10, 2008 11:23 PM EDT
          MightyMait

          We use inanimate scientific instruments which produce the same results over and over and over again.

          Do they, now? Just like they did during the nuclear decay studies I referenced?

          Those instruments are built by people with imperfect senses. The precision of those instruments may improve arbitrarily, but a certain degree of imprecision remains. Also, people with imperfect senses decide which data are valid and which data are anomalies. Not very objective.

          It reads that every time because that's what the actual, objective value is.

          Be that as it may, whatever reasonable objectivity there is is still only objectivity in the phantasmal "World of Warcraft" which we falsely identify as being ultimate reality.

          • 1 vote
          #3.21 - Thu Sep 11, 2008 4:48 PM EDT
          Danny McGee

          Be that as it may, whatever reasonable objectivity there is is still only objectivity in the phantasmal "World of Warcraft" which we falsely identify as being ultimate reality.

          I'd like to know what direction one must turn their head in order to stop looking at the screen and see this "real reality" you insist exists.

          • 2 votes
          #3.22 - Thu Sep 11, 2008 5:00 PM EDT
          Adam Kemp

          Just like they did during the nuclear decay studies I referenced?

          They gave consistent results every time given the same inputs. Once they started giving unexpected results then someone has to explain why. Just like Newton's laws explained motion perfectly until someone tried to use them to describe the motion of planets. Only then did it fail. That didn't invalidate all previous results. It just told us that there were other variables which affect those results which we had not yet taken into account. Same goes for the decay rate measurements. Those were consistent over and over again until the conditions changed. Then we figured out which conditions changed to explain the results. They're still consistent given the same inputs, though, and you have no reason to believe that this will ever change.

          If there is some other super-reality which we apparently cannot possibly see then we may as well assume it doesn't exist at all. It's not useful to say something exists which cannot have any effect on us.

          • 3 votes
          #3.23 - Thu Sep 11, 2008 7:08 PM EDT
          renderedtruthDeleted
          Adam Kemp

          I don't know what "rules" you're talking about.

          All I'm saying is that it's nonsensical to claim that something "exists" but we can't possibly detect it, alter it, or be affected by it. That makes no sense. The word for something which can't be detected or altered and which doesn't affect us at all is "imaginary". As in, Santa, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy.

          • 3 votes
          #3.25 - Thu Sep 11, 2008 7:43 PM EDT
          MightyMait

          If there is some other super-reality which we apparently cannot possibly see then we may as well assume it doesn't exist at all. It's not useful to say something exists which cannot have any effect on us.

          Maybe I'm confused here (I've been away from this thread for a while), but I thought this particular sub-thread was a discussion on "objectivity". My point is not dependent upon the existence of a super-reality. I'm claiming that, with everything influencing everything else, there can be no true objectivity.

          The theories of relativity in physics tend to throw monkey wrenches into the myth of objectivity. If only the speed of light (in an ideal vacuum) is absolute irrespective of frame of reference, then time and space themselves are relative and mutable, right?

          To address "super-reality", as you put it, why must we assume that it can't be detected, altered and that it can't affect us? Perhaps it can't be detected by conventional means (but, even then, despite our ever increasing sources of data, we are sampling but an infinitesimal fraction of existence), but that doesn't mean that it can't be detected. Because we may be unaware of it's affect on us in our every day existence, that doesn't necessitate that it can't affect us ever.

          • 1 vote
          #3.26 - Thu Sep 18, 2008 3:02 PM EDT
          Adam Kemp

          You confuse the concepts of relativity with subjectivity. They're not the same. From a given frame of reference my mass is the same amount no matter who does the measurement. From another frame of reference my mass depends on the relative velocities of their frame of reference and my frame of reference. That's still objective, though. Relative doesn't mean it changes per person. It just means it changes. In this case it changes due to specific variables which are decently understood. Anyone making the same measurement from the same frame of reference will get the same result. Anyone measuring from a different frame of reference will get a predictably different result.

          To address "super-reality", as you put it, why must we assume that it can't be detected, altered and that it can't affect us

          If it can be measured then it can't be a separate reality. We can't measure things in different realities. That's more nonsensical garbage. It makes no sense to say you're going to "measure" something which exists outside our own reality. What would you even use to "measure" it?

          • 2 votes
          #3.27 - Thu Sep 18, 2008 3:53 PM EDT
          MightyMait

          Anyone making the same measurement from the same frame of reference will get the same result. Anyone measuring from a different frame of reference will get a predictably different result.

          The questions remain: are any two observers in the exact same frame of reference, and the differences between two frames of reference must be relative to a third frame of reference--is there an absolute frame of reference (the Earth is in motion around the Sun, the Sun is in motion around the galactic center...I suppose, in the material universe, the origin of the Big Bang could be considered an absolute frame of reference, but perhaps that origin itself is in motion relative to something)?

          If it can be measured then it can't be a separate reality. We can't measure things in different realities.

          I suppose the confusion lies in the term "separate". It's not that material reality is separate from spiritual reality. Rather, material reality is a subset of spiritual reality--a dark corner of the realm of spirit, if you will. So, while we cannot access the realm of spirit via mundane means, we *can* access all realms via spiritual means.

          • 1 vote
          #3.28 - Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:28 PM EDT
          Adam Kemp

          Frame of reference does not mean subjectivity, though! The difference between two frames of reference is itself measurable, and that difference is directly and predictably related to the differences in the measurements taken from each. That's what you don't seem to understand. It can't be subjective if it's predictable based on known variables.

          • 4 votes
          #3.29 - Fri Sep 19, 2008 3:42 PM EDT
          MightyMait

          The difference between two frames of reference is itself measurable

          Is that difference a constant? Is it *ever* a constant?

          It can't be subjective if it's predictable based on known variables.

          Right. It's all the *unknown* variables (and there always are *some*) that are the issue.

          • 1 vote
          #3.30 - Fri Sep 19, 2008 7:32 PM EDT
          Adam Kemp

          It doesn't matter if the difference is constant, and it doesn't even really matter if they're unknown. In order for something to be subjective it cannot be possible (even in theory) to measure it in any objective way. Since everything related to relativity, and everything you've talked about so far in science, is absolutely measurable and predictable then it cannot possibly be considered subjective. We don't have to have all the answers. All we have to do is show that the answer doesn't depend on who takes the measurement.

          • 3 votes
          #3.31 - Sat Sep 20, 2008 12:44 AM EDT
          MightyMait

          In order for something to be subjective it cannot be possible (even in theory) to measure it in any objective way.

          I agree. True objectivity is only possible theoretically--in the world of ideals. In practice, there's always an element of the subjective.

          Since everything related to relativity, and everything you've talked about so far in science, is absolutely measurable and predictable then it cannot possibly be considered subjective.

          Really? Can you remind me of something that we can measure absolutely?

          All we have to do is show that the answer doesn't depend on who takes the measurement.

          It does in the sense that it's impossible for two observers to measure the same thing at the same time from the same location.

          • 1 vote
          #3.32 - Mon Sep 22, 2008 5:59 PM EDT
          Adam Kemp

          I agree. True objectivity is only possible theoretically--in the world of ideals. In practice, there's always an element of the subjective.

          You obviously don't agree because I said "even in theory". If it is theoretically possible to measure something objectively then it is not subjective. Subjective means that it cannot possibly be done objectively.

          Really? Can you remind me of something that we can measure absolutely?

          You misunderstood. I didn't say everything (or anything) can be measured to absolute precision. I said absolutely everything in science can be measured.

          It does in the sense that it's impossible for two observers to measure the same thing at the same time from the same location.

          So what? Location is measurable too, so it's still objective. You just don't seem to understand what "objective" and "subjective" even mean, so this is pretty hopeless.

          • 2 votes
          #3.33 - Mon Sep 22, 2008 8:28 PM EDT
          MightyMait

          Subjective means that it cannot possibly be done objectively.

          If something can only be done objectively in theory then it cannot be done objectively in practice.

          I said absolutely everything in science can be measured.

          Measured using arbitrary standards. Also, nothing can be measured in a truly passive sense. The act of measurement affects the thing being measured (not only in the sense of Heisenberg, but in terms of, say, measuring electrical properties such as voltage, current, etc.) thereby precluding objectivity.

          So what? Location is measurable too, so it's still objective. You just don't seem to understand what "objective" and "subjective" even mean, so this is pretty hopeless.

          Once again, measurement of location is tied to frame of reference. Where's the absolute frame of reference?

          I understand what "objective" and "subjective" mean just fine. You seem to be saying that "objective enough for our purposes" equates with objective. As always, the materialists need to resort to reductionism and approximations in order to maintain their illusion of control.

          • 1 vote
          #3.34 - Tue Sep 23, 2008 2:39 PM EDT
          Adam Kemp

          If something can only be done objectively in theory then it cannot be done objectively in practice.

          It is still objective, though. It's objective because the differences in the measurements are not because of who takes them, but rather the conditions under which they are taken. If Joe and Bob took the exact same measurement in the same conditions they would get the same answer. It doesn't matter that Joe and Bob have different worldviews or different beliefs or different pasts. It doesn't even matter if a person is taking the measurement or if it's a robot.

          It doesn't even make sense to call something subjective when you can remove the person from the equation. If all of our measurements were taken by autonomous robots and reported back to us then how could that possibly be subjective? Do you think the numbers will appear different to one person than another? No. That's ridiculous. The measurements are objective every time.

          Even now you don't seem to understand what objective means. It doesn't mean that taking the measurement has no effect. It doesn't mean it's an absolute measurement. It doesn't mean that the units are hard-coded into the Universe (and thus the absolute number is somewhat arbitrary). None of that has anything whatsoever to do with objectivity. The fact that you continue to bring these things up just further demonstrates that you don't know what the word means.

          Objective means one thing: the measurements are independent of who takes the measurements. They're not opinions. They're not subject to personal beliefs or your own tastes. A Christian doesn't get a different reading from a thermometer than a Jew. No person need even be involved. No sentient being need be involved. The measurement will still be exactly the same. That's what objective means.

          • 2 votes
          #3.35 - Tue Sep 23, 2008 10:43 PM EDT
          renderedtruthDeleted
          Adam Kemp

          Reality is ultimately measurable. That's why I talk about it. The physical world we see and can measure is all there is. Everything else is imaginary and arbitrary.

          • 3 votes
          #3.37 - Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:07 AM EDT
          MightyMait

          The physical world we see and can measure is all there is. Everything else is imaginary and arbitrary.

          I suppose this article is rather timely:

          Patches of matter in the universe seem to be moving at very high speeds and in a uniform direction that can't be explained by any of the known gravitational forces in the observable universe. Astronomers are calling the phenomenon "dark flow."

          The stuff that's pulling this matter must be outside the observable universe, researchers conclude.

          When scientists talk about the observable universe, they don't just mean as far out as the eye, or even the most powerful telescope, can see. In fact there's a fundamental limit to how much of the universe we could ever observe, no matter how advanced our visual instruments.

          Of course, this finding (which could be a misinterpretation of the data, of course) doesn't mean that whatever is causing this effect is spiritual in nature, but it pretty well shreds your article of faith, Adam.

          I'm going to drop (for now) the quibbling about what constitutes objectivity (though I could certainly belabor the point further (and it's tempting to do so)) and whether it's possible to attain it.

          Rather, I'd like to mention something about repeatability, since you've brought it up as being crucial to a scientific understanding of reality. While repeatability is certainly crucial when it comes to applying science to every day life (we want those airplanes to be as dependable as possible), when it comes to expanding our knowledge and seeking truth, it is really the anomalies that are most instructive.

          In fact, it would probably be safe to say that most progress in science is made by more closely examining anomalies (and, of course, anomalies (as "random" mutations) are key to evolutionary theory).

          However, in our every day lives, in our quest to find order, we so often simply ignore the innumerable anomalies around us. For example, in my work, I troubleshoot email issues. Recently, a customer reported being unable to send a meeting request to an external contact. When I tested sending a meeting request to the same person, it got through. Now, I could spend an inordinate amount of time trying to figure out why that first meeting request failed. Knowing what I do about networking and the SMTP protocol, I can think of any number of reasons why this transient error might have occurred. If I did, however, it wouldn't make much of a difference to our day-to-day operations, and it would eat into the time I spend on Newsvine. :)

          Once again, things can be reasonably repeatable, especially under artificially controlled conditions, but the anomalies will always be there and we may not every be able to explain them.

          How does this fit into the overall discussion? I'm not quite sure except that it reinforces my belief that the mechanistic view of reality is really a very idealistic, somewhat naive one.

          • 1 vote
          #3.38 - Wed Sep 24, 2008 2:09 PM EDT
          spiffie

          Of course, this finding (which could be a misinterpretation of the data, of course) doesn't mean that whatever is causing this effect is spiritual in nature, but it pretty well shreds your article of faith, Adam.

          Not really, since he said the physical world was what we can see or measure. We can measure the effect of "dark flow" (assuming the initial observations hold up), so there is a physical effect part of the natural world.

          • 2 votes
          #3.39 - Wed Sep 24, 2008 2:25 PM EDT
          MightyMait

          We can measure the effect of "dark flow"

          We can measure the *effect*. Measuring or detecting the effect of something is not the same as measuring the thing. Nice try at evasion.

          What these scientists are proposing is that there is something which is beyond our direct detection which is having a detectable effect on the known universe. There's no evading that.

          • 1 vote
          #3.40 - Wed Sep 24, 2008 2:28 PM EDT
          Brad Leclerc

          What these scientists are proposing is that there is something which is beyond our direct detection which is having a detectable effect on the known universe.

          Like....gravity? "The physical world" does not mean "the observable universe", so it really doesn't matter if the "thing" can be measured or not, so long as the "effect" can be. Much of science in certain areas is based in part on such indirect observation and understanding how they fit together to get a better picture of what's going on. There's no evasion going on.....well, not from Adam or Spiffie anyway.....you do seem to be avoiding giving any strait responses to what is being said, and seem content with just saying "NUH UH!!!" and thinking that you've disproved their points.

          • 2 votes
          #3.41 - Wed Sep 24, 2008 2:44 PM EDT
          spiffie

          Measuring or detecting the effect of something is not the same as measuring the thing.

          Given enough measurements of it, sure it is. We may not be able to see a black hole, but we can measure its mass indirectly by its effect on surrounding matter. Many phenomena that we observe are only observable in their effects, not themselves.

          • 1 vote
          #3.42 - Wed Sep 24, 2008 2:45 PM EDT
          MightyMait

          Many phenomena that we observe are only observable in their effects, not themselves.

          Granted that, why should this principle not also apply to God?

          • 2 votes
          #3.43 - Wed Sep 24, 2008 3:31 PM EDT
          Brad Leclerc

          Granted that, why should this principle not also apply to God?

          Give us a measurable effect that god has that can only be explained by god, and THEN you might have a case...until then, not so much...

          • 3 votes
          #3.44 - Wed Sep 24, 2008 3:36 PM EDT
          spiffie

          What Brad said.

          • 2 votes
          #3.45 - Wed Sep 24, 2008 3:50 PM EDT
          renderedtruthDeleted
          Brad Leclerc

          God needs to be addressed on the level of a philosophic debate because there is no other access to Him.

          If God is purely a "philosophical concept" with no physical aspect that could (let alone actually is) detected, then by your own words, god is not real...so what's the argument?

          • 3 votes
          #3.47 - Wed Sep 24, 2008 4:12 PM EDT
          renderedtruthDeleted
          Brad Leclerc

          I think it is amazing that you can say that a philosophical concept is about nothing that can be real.

          It would be amazing, if that is what I had said. What I said was "If God is purely a "philosophical concept" with no physical aspect", which is what you described in your previous comment.

          Something can certainly be "real" and have a philosophical concept about it....but something with no physicality or measurable effect on anything, but that has a philosophical concept about it....is by definition NOT real.

          • 3 votes
          #3.49 - Wed Sep 24, 2008 5:01 PM EDT
          spiffie

          I think it is amazing that you can say that a philosophical concept is about nothing that can be real.

          I think it's amazing that you think this is what Brad said. My suggestion would be to reread comment #3.47.

          • 2 votes
          #3.50 - Wed Sep 24, 2008 5:02 PM EDT
          renderedtruthDeleted
          Brad Leclerc

          I suppose you have a great line on the concept of time then? It is not exactly something that you can touch. It is purely a philosophical concept - and for that matter - so is pure mathematics.

          Time is a measurable trait of universe. Yes, we as humans have developed a set of rules that we use to base those measurements on for the sake of objectivity...but it is very much measurable and testable (and even plyable in specific situations).

          Math on the other hand, is purely a concept. There is no math "object" to point to....that is true......but no one is making the argument that math is a real physical thing, so I'm not sure what your point is there....

          If you were arguing that god was a good way of looking at things in a philosophical sense...you MIGHT have an argument...but if you are arguing that god is a real thing, and not just a concept that people have agreed on (to varying degrees), then you're just plain not making any sense.

          • 3 votes
          #3.52 - Wed Sep 24, 2008 5:55 PM EDT
          spiffie

          I suppose you have a great line on the concept of time then? It is not exactly something that you can touch.

          Again, you're not reading what Brad is saying. Here, I've highlighted the important portion: Something can certainly be "real" and have a philosophical concept about it....but something with no physicality or measurable effect on anything, but that has a philosophical concept about it....is by definition NOT real.

          Time very clearly has a measurable effect on virtually everything, so it's not a very good example for your argument.

          It is purely a philosophical concept - and for that matter - so is pure mathematics

          The problem with using pure mathematics is that abstract mathematical concepts almost inevitably are discovered to have physical expression. Examples are numerous, from the many physical expressions of phi (the Golden Ratio) to the expressions of group theory in geometry. Are there current concepts in advanced pure mathematics for which we haven't yet found real world expression? Sure, but the track record for pure mathematics eventually moving into the realm of the applied is so long and so virtually universal that it certainly suggests a continuing pattern and underlying connection.

          • 3 votes
          #3.53 - Wed Sep 24, 2008 5:58 PM EDT
          Brad Leclerc

          Sure, but the track record for pure mathematics eventually moving into the realm of the applied is so long and so virtually universal that it certainly suggests a continuing pattern and underlying connection.

          Not to mention that it doesn't even have to have a physical expression to be a useful (and objective) tool for many many things......it's completely irrelevant to the argument at hand...but then, so was the "time" example...so.....yeah...

          • 3 votes
          #3.54 - Wed Sep 24, 2008 6:03 PM EDT
          renderedtruthDeleted
          Brad Leclerc

          When a native tribe says that their religion prohibits the eating of a certain fruit - and it turns out that the fruit is in fact poison - is that not proof, that their religion has truth, and that God protects them?

          Let's see......some people eat a fruit....and die. Then more people eat the same fruit...and die. Then people tell stories about how these people died from eating a fruit...and people stop eating the fruit.

          No, I would not call that proof of god protecting people. What would you call a hurricane that kills 1000's? God's day off?

          • 4 votes
          #3.56 - Wed Sep 24, 2008 6:18 PM EDT
          spiffie

          The problem with that argument is that many religions around the world possess dietary restrictions which can reasonably be tied to valid reasons (often valid only before modern sanitation techniques). However, those different religions are mutually exclusive. Not all religions with such restrictions are theistic. Does that mean that non-theistic religions are equally as true as theistic religions? How can there both be a God and not be a God at the same time?

          • 3 votes
          #3.57 - Wed Sep 24, 2008 6:38 PM EDT
          Adam Kemp

          "Visible" is not the same as "measurable". There's no difference between measuring something and measuring the effects of it. It's the same. In fact, that's what most of our measurements are. We don't directly measure the mass of something. We put it on a scale and measure how it alters the state of the scale. That's an indirect way of measuring mass. Does that mean mass isn't measurable? No. It is measurable via its effects.

          • 3 votes
          #3.58 - Thu Sep 25, 2008 12:48 AM EDT
          Adam KempDeleted
          MightyMait

          Interesting discussion being carried on in my absence.

          Give us a measurable effect that god has that can only be explained by god, and THEN you might have a case...until then, not so much...

          This seems like a double standard. Numerous theories regarding gravitation (from space curvature to gravitons) have been proposed, have they not? Why place this sort of constraint on the theist?

          If you were arguing that god was a good way of looking at things in a philosophical sense...

          Well, considering that this discussion touches on many philosophical elements, this is exactly what some of us are arguing. Nobody here is proposing that automobiles ought to be designed according to religious principles.

          "Visible" is not the same as "measurable". There's no difference between measuring something and measuring the effects of it. It's the same. In fact, that's what most of our measurements are

          I understand that quite well. What folks here seem to be deliberately ignoring is that, in the article I cite, reputable scientists are proposing that they are observing the mundane effects of something that cannot (based on current knowledge) be part of the known universe.

          spiffie mentioned black holes. While none of us has come close enough to smell one, we can reasonably assume that matter is falling into them. When the matter (or light) falls into the black hole, does it become imaginary? Does it cease to be real because we can no longer detect it?

          • 2 votes
          #3.60 - Thu Sep 25, 2008 6:45 PM EDT
          spiffie

          This seems like a double standard. Numerous theories regarding gravitation (from space curvature to gravitons) have been proposed, have they not? Why place this sort of constraint on the theist?

          How is it a double standard? Although many theories might be proposed, none is accepted as the most likely one until it explains the evidence better (i.e. in a way that only it can explain) than all the others. That's exactly what we're asking for here.

          reputable scientists are proposing that they are observing the mundane effects of something that cannot (based on current knowledge) be part of the known universe.

          And…what? How much has the known universe expanded in just a century? Despite observing numerous effects that couldn't previously been explained by anything in the "known universe" have we yet come across anything that's only explainable via supernatural causes? So far as I know, no. Presuming a mundane cause in the interim, given the history, seems eminently reasonable. If that presumption becomes untenable based on further evidence, it can always be discarded.

          When the matter (or light) falls into the black hole, does it become imaginary? Does it cease to be real because we can no longer detect it?

          No. Why would you think that? Black holes preserve the information which falls into them, and slowly radiate it back out into space.

          • 2 votes
          #3.61 - Thu Sep 25, 2008 7:03 PM EDT
          Adam Kemp

          reputable scientists are proposing that they are observing the mundane effects of something that cannot (based on current knowledge) be part of the known universe.

          There are a lot of things we probably don't know about the Universe, but that does not make them supernatural or impossible to measure. So what does that have to do with any of your beliefs?

          • 2 votes
          #3.62 - Thu Sep 25, 2008 10:48 PM EDT
          MightyMait

          Spiffie:

          Although many theories might be proposed, none is accepted as the most likely one until it explains the evidence better (i.e. in a way that only it can explain) than all the others. That's exactly what we're asking for here.

          When it comes to cosmology (where we're examining (ostensibly) 13 billion year old background radiation and the like) there is little direct experimentation possible, is there? We're stuck with modeling phenomena and refining our models. There's no hope for directly verifying our conclusions.

          Presuming a mundane cause in the interim, given the history, seems eminently reasonable. If that presumption becomes untenable based on further evidence, it can always be discarded.

          Considering that so many things fall outside of the purview of what we can study (like what was happening prior to the most recent Big Bang), it seems eminently reasonable to presume a Divine cause of all causes.

          No. Why would you think that? Black holes preserve the information which falls into them, and slowly radiate it back out into space.

          So we theorize. It looks like this has yet to actually be observed. Shall we add along with pink unicorns to our list of imaginary things?

          However, the existence of Hawking radiation has never been observed, although the Large Hadron Collider may produce mini black holes, which would provide some evidence for Hawking radiation[2]

          Adam:

          There are a lot of things we probably don't know about the Universe, but that does not make them supernatural or impossible to measure. So what does that have to do with any of your beliefs?

          Good question. To repeat myself: your assumption seems to be that all things are knowable, even if we do not know them now. However, to me, there are so many things that seem to be unknowable--ineffable. While science/logic/reason are certainly tools that have their use, as my Guru's Guru says, we could spend countless lifetimes studying a single grain of sand and never learn everything there is to know about it.

          As intense as my curiosity is (tempered by my laziness, sadly), I need to face my own limitations (and our collective limitations--for some of my questions, there appears to be no human who can provide an answer). Rather than despair, I take comfort (in the belief) that there is a Higher Power of infinite (non-relative) goodness who has all the answers, being the source, resting place, and destination of everything.

            #3.63 - Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:33 PM EDT
            spiffie

            there is little direct experimentation possible, is there?

            Not so. Not so at all. Why do you think the Large Hadron Collider is important? Because it helps tell us about the behavior of the early universe.

            Considering that so many things fall outside of the purview of what we can study (like what was happening prior to the most recent Big Bang), it seems eminently reasonable to presume a Divine cause of all causes.

            God of the gaps. Just because we don't have purview over those matters now does not mean we'll never be able to study them. An argument from ignorance is not very convincing. C'mon, you can do better than that.

            So we theorize. It looks like this has yet to actually be observed. Shall we add along with pink unicorns to our list of imaginary things?

            When pink unicorns have the robust, if theoretical, foundation that Hawking radiation does, you be sure to let us know.

            • 2 votes
            #3.64 - Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:54 PM EDT
            Brad Leclerc

            Rather than despair, I take comfort (in the belief) that there is a Higher Power

            In other words you have no reason to believe in god, but because you don't know certain things, and for some reason think not knowing something is a bad thing, you choose to put "god" in the place of "i don't know"...and that's fine. Irrational, but fine. The denial is getting to be a bit much though.

            • 2 votes
            #3.65 - Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:58 PM EDT
            MightyMait

            Why do you think the Large Hadron Collider is important? Because it helps tell us about the behavior of the early universe.

            Can we ever build a large enough collider? At a certain point, don't we run into practical limitations?

            Just because we don't have purview over those matters now does not mean we'll never be able to study them.

            Just how do you imagine us studying pre-Big Bang existence? The ability of humanity to arbitrarily enlarge our base of knowledge seems to be a key point in the catechism of the materialists.

            In other words you have no reason to believe in god, but because you don't know certain things, and for some reason think not knowing something is a bad thing, you choose to put "god" in the place of "i don't know"...and that's fine.

            There's so much more to it than that. I've had enough "spiritual" experiences (however modest) to open my eyes to the infinite vastness of spiritual experience. What I've directly experienced jibes with what I've heard described by those further along in their spiritual evolution and gives me hope that the path of the spirit is far more rewarding than the path of empirical inquiry.

            As much as I strive to point out the limitations of science, nothing is without value when seen in relation to the Supreme Being and everything is worthless when it is not.

            • 1 vote
            #3.66 - Fri Sep 26, 2008 7:00 PM EDT
            MightyMait

            You know, spiff, I'm ambling my way through that fascinating Wikipedia article on Hawking Radiation, and it seems that some hand-waving has been done here.

            Admittedly, while my three semesters of undergrad Physics (and one of solid-state physics) don't prepare me to understand the article very fully, it's clear enough that Hawking's proposal is somewhat problematic, raising various paradoxes and having its detractors:

            The modes that eventually contain the outgoing radiation at long times are redshifted by such a huge amount by their long sojourn next to the event horizon, that they start off as modes with a wavelength much shorter than the Planck length. Since the laws of physics at such short distances are unknown, some find Hawking's original calculation unconvincing.[7][8][9][10][11][12]

            Also, there doesn't appear to be a direct correlation between matter sucked into a black hole and radiation emitted as you seem to suggest.

            As an example, a black hole of one solar mass has a temperature of only 60 nanokelvin; in fact, such a black hole would absorb far more cosmic microwave background radiation than it emits. A black hole of 4.5 × 1022 kg (about the mass of the Moon) would be in equilibrium at 2.7 kelvins, absorbing as much radiation as it emits. Yet smaller primordial black holes would emit more than they absorb, and thereby lose mass.

            Whatever the case, these areas of physics--regardless of their mathematical basis--certainly start to look a lot like mysticism.

            • 1 vote
            #3.67 - Fri Sep 26, 2008 8:10 PM EDT
            Adam Kemp

            your assumption seems to be that all things are knowable, even if we do not know them now.

            I never said that or even implied it. I don't even believe that. What I do believe is that reality is fundamentally objective and that the only way to learn anything about it is through rational, scientific approaches. Arbitrary assertions that can never be tested doesn't tell us anything. Untestable assertions are utterly useless.

            There are almost certainly limits to our knowledge, but we can't just give up and start making things up instead of actually applying a real method of learning that actually works. We can either learn things with a high degree of confidence through the scientific method or we can make things up with zero percent confidence using your method. That's a no-brainer.

            • 2 votes
            #3.68 - Sat Sep 27, 2008 12:21 AM EDT
            MightyMait

            There are almost certainly limits to our knowledge, but we can't just give up and start making things up instead of actually applying a real method of learning that actually works.

            Why can't we "just give up"? What is our overarching need to know everything that we can possible know? How much are we willing to sacrifice to gain such knowledge.

            Everything prior to the last couple hundred of years of developments has come to be without empiric science. While existence might not adhere to our own idealistic conception of perfection, everything was/is in some sort of cosmic balance.

            Why do we endeavor so to gain knowledge? Is is so we can avoid the Zen enjoinder to "chop wood and carry water"? Is it so that we can automate all drudge work and allow ourselves to play Rock Band, eat potato chips and die of heart attacks at age 45?

            Why this mad quest for (mundane) knowledge?

              #3.69 - Mon Sep 29, 2008 7:06 PM EDT
              renderedtruthDeleted
              spiffie

              Why can't we "just give up"?

              Don't quote-mine. Adam said we cant just give up and start making things up. If you want to give up on seeking knowledge, be my guest, but don't pretend the drivel you spew forth in place of that knowledge you've forsaken is anything other than that.

              • 3 votes
              #3.71 - Mon Sep 29, 2008 7:36 PM EDT
              Adam Kemp

              We should keep going because new knowledge is useful, and arbitrary assertions are not. Science has vastly improved the quality of medical care, for instance. You would throw that away.

              We don't have to sacrifice anything to gain new knowledge.

              We may have gotten by just fine for a long time without an explicit use of the scientific method, but it's no coincidence that the last few centuries have seen an explosion in production, quality of life, life expectancy, and so on. The world isn't perfect, but we're far better off now than in the dark ages when we basically used your preferred method of gaining knowledge (making @!$%# up). You know, back when people were murdered for "witchcraft" and people were bled to death (or nearly) because they thought that was an effective cure for any disease. That's what you get when you throw away skepticism and scientific approaches.

              While existence might not adhere to our own idealistic conception of perfection, everything was/is in some sort of cosmic balance.

              More meaningless bull@!$%#. There's no such thing as "cosmic balance". You made it up. The only thing that we know for sure is that using your beliefs alone without science would lead to death, destruction, disease, and general global unhappiness here in real life. Maybe you're fine with living a miserable life in the hopes of some glorious make-believe after-life, but I'm not, and most people would like to live happy lives rather than miserable ones. If you want misery then go make your own life miserable. Leave everyone else alone, though.

              • 2 votes
              #3.72 - Mon Sep 29, 2008 7:39 PM EDT
              renderedtruthDeleted
              MightyMait

              Adam said we cant just give up and start making things up.

              Why can't we? After all, scientists are making things up all the time. Science is based speculation (however seemingly informed). Before modern science, folks devised ways of doing useful things via ingenuity and trial and error. Their explanations for why those methods work (such as building a fire, for instance) have little bearing on the utility of those methods.

              Viewing the sun as being drawn across the sky has little bearing upon the farmer, does it?

              We don't have to sacrifice anything to gain new knowledge.

              Oh, no? How many people have died in medical trials? How many animals die each year in the biologists' laboratories. How many people could have been clothed and fed with the resources used to build the LHC? Your assertion is ludicrous.

              There's no such thing as "cosmic balance". You made it up. The only thing that we know for sure is that using your beliefs alone without science would lead to death, destruction, disease, and general global unhappiness here in real life.

              Is that so? Did I make up "for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction"? Did I make up conservation of energy, momentum, etc.? That's all part of the cosmic balance. Infuriatingly to the idealistic humanist/materialist, so are death, destruction, disease, etc. Those things will all exist in the mundane realm despite any of our beliefs. To believe that we can eliminate those things is the height of delusion.

              The wise theist realizes that, rather than undertaking the Sisyphean task of eliminating mundane misery is to search for and encourage others to search for transcendental bliss.

                #3.74 - Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:06 PM EDT
                spiffie

                Why can't we?

                Why can't we just make @!$%# up? If that's what your hang up is, that you want to just make @!$%# up and be taken seriously for it, then I don't know that we have anything to talk about. Just don't be surprised that most people point at you and laugh their asses off.

                Science is based speculation (however seemingly informed). Before modern science, folks devised ways of doing useful things via ingenuity and trial and error.

                Trial and error is all about finding a repeatable method by which to do something. In a certain sense, trial and error is simple science. There's nothing wrong with it, but we've (most of us) moved on to more advanced methods. You don't have to write to communicate either, you can you just stick to talking if you want. But sticking your head in the sand and refusing to adopt more advanced methods of doing something mostly hurt you. (In fact, if you want to stop writing and stick to talking, I whole-heartedly encourage you to do so.)

                Their explanations for why those methods work (such as building a fire, for instance) have little bearing on the utility of those methods.

                Viewing the sun as being drawn across the sky has little bearing upon the farmer, does it?

                Uhm. How many of us are farmers? Are you a farmer? An accurate understanding of the sun may (or may not) have a direct impact on the farmer, but it surely has a direct impact on services the modern farmer likely uses, such as communication services.

                • 1 vote
                #3.75 - Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:28 PM EDT
                renderedtruthDeleted
                Adam Kemp

                Is that so? Did I make up "for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction"? Did I make up conservation of energy, momentum, etc.

                That's it. You have reached a level of stupid that I can just no longer tolerate. This is no longer interesting, and you are no longer worth responding to. Enough of this ridiculous bull@!$%#. Have fun in the dark ages. I suggest you stop using the internet since it's an application of many, many technologies which could not possibly exist without the knowledge gained through science. Do us all a favor and give up the luxury of technology.

                • 2 votes
                #3.77 - Tue Sep 30, 2008 4:14 AM EDT
                Reply
                JeanCauvin5

                A well-written piece. But unless I simply overlooked it, you never really return to the question you begin with: why is this "good news"?

                • 2 votes
                Reply#4 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 10:52 AM EDT
                Danny McGee

                I think what I was going for there is the concept that from an atheistic worldview life becomes more valuable because it's finite, thus we should be more inspired to strive for greatness because we're not going to have a second chance. Take it as a personal statement, like the rest of the article. It's not good news in that it's going to be "good news" for everyone that the rest of the world should embrace (ala the Christian gospels), it's simply good news for me. It's my gospel of sorts.

                • 4 votes
                #4.1 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 1:38 PM EDT
                Fada

                Take it as a personal statement, like the rest of the article. It's not good news

                It,s just simple news told honnestly by you , Danny McGee

                I,ve been through the same dilemma for long years asking questions ,reading and trying to define my faith . At one point I knew that I,ll never get reliable answers Why should I define my belief ?

                All what I am certain about is that I ,ve a problem with believing at second chance given to humans by a creator and I feel that religions are simple notions created by man,s fears of the unknown and it carry the mind-prints of man,s thoughts ''like his opt for awarding and punishing''

                This 'being non-believer' doesn,t make me a philosopher or a thinker who must go through subtle meditation over the alternative possibilities of creation just because I am not convinced with what we,ve had for centuries.

                It,s that simple , a substantsial number of non-believers don,t believe at God and they don,t know what or who exists outside the room and they don,t bother to find out or to name their beief

                They know that they will never know for sure.

                • 2 votes
                #4.2 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 4:26 PM EDT
                Reply
                Gary Shaw

                As a fellow Atheist, I say....BRAVO!!! You have taken a sensitive subject, and put a very insightful and personal touch on it. I agree with your analogy of the "room", except I believe the "room" has NO WALLS. It is a room of infinite size. The human mind can not conceive of anything as being "infinite" because we are "finite" beings. We only see things as having "beginnings" and "ends". We are taught from birth that everything is born, and then dies. But once we can truly conceive "infinity"....then the "room" size becomes less important, and the "now" becomes supremely important.

                Once again....nice article.

                • 2 votes
                Reply#5 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 12:13 PM EDT
                Jonathan D. Miller

                It is a room of infinite size

                While huge, I believe most scientist would agree that the Universe is finite.

                • 8 votes
                #5.1 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 12:27 PM EDT
                Gary Shaw

                Jonathan....I respect your belief...but disagree. Science is starting to agree that the Universe is "infinite".

                • 2 votes
                #5.2 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 1:01 PM EDT
                Jonathan D. Miller

                To each his own theory I suppose.

                So do you believe that the Universe is also infinite time-wise? Or did it begin with the Big Bang?

                I an infinite Universe is only viable if it has always existed, but if it had a beginning (ie, the Big Bang) then it most likely has boundaries, albeit that those boundaries may be expanding at an incredible rate.

                • 5 votes
                #5.3 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 1:28 PM EDT
                Danny McGee

                From what I understand, it's still very much in contention whether or not the universe is finite. From what I've read, a full understanding of it would require a better model of physics that unites quantum mechanics and general relativity, because as is it's still impossible to fully understand the Big Bang. If it is as current popular understanding would indicate, then the universe would have found its beginning with the Big Bang, making it finite. But if the Big Bang theory is not quite as accurate as we originally thought, as Hawking and others are now suggesting due to study into quantum mechanics, it opens up the possibility of an infinite universe. I don't know, physics has never really been my strong suit, but the point of the analogy was to be illustrative and understandable, not perfectly accurate to the real world.

                • 4 votes
                #5.4 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 1:30 PM EDT
                Gary Shaw

                Jonathan....For me....NO BIG BANG. My Universe is "infinite" and "eternal". No beginning-No end.
                But.....if you are only referring to the Universe that we perceive through our 5 senses, then there probably is some sort of territorial limits. The "physical" Universe exists within the "eternal" Universe..."The Void".

                But that's just me!!!!!

                • 4 votes
                #5.5 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 2:32 PM EDT
                Jonathan D. Miller

                Gary,

                I respect that, and accept that as a possible theory, but again, I hold to the theory with a definite beginning to the universe and finite boundaries, though they are quite immense. What is beyond the boundaries of the 'verse is where infinity/eternity exists.

                But thats just me!

                • 6 votes
                #5.6 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 3:03 PM EDT
                Gary Shaw

                Jonathan.....Touche!

                • 2 votes
                #5.7 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 3:33 PM EDT
                spiffie

                So do you believe that the Universe is also infinite time-wise? Or did it begin with the Big Bang?

                I'd just like to note that just because a line has one endpoint does not mean it is finite. If the line continues infinitely off into the distance in one direction, it's still a line of infinite length, one end point or not. It's simply directionally infinite; this actually might not be as surprising as one would think when thinking about time, because time (at least, so far as we can tell so far) is a directionally-oriented dimension (time only flows in one direction, for whatever reason).

                • 5 votes
                #5.8 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 3:41 PM EDT
                E.D.Kain

                While huge, I believe most scientist would agree that the Universe is finite.

                Well, a few thoughts. First of all, there could be many universes. The Room could be but one of many. There could even be other things, not Universes at all.

                One theory I read about the Big Bang is that perhaps the Universe is constantly born and reborn--expands and then retracts, tinier and tinier, and the BANG and it expands again, bigger and bigger, and then back to its tiny, infinitesimal size--a non-size--and then BANG again. Perhaps there are an infinite number of universes constantly exploding and expanding and retracting and exploding again. Perhaps "universe" is only one concept in an infinite sea of concepts. Perhaps the notion of infinity is also too utterly simple to describe it.

                • 4 votes
                #5.9 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 4:06 PM EDT
                Adam Kemp

                The fact that time began at the Big Bang implies that the Universe is eternal. It has existed for all time. The Universe exists independent of time itself. There was no beginning of the Universe itself. There was only the beginning of time and the present state of the Universe.

                • 2 votes
                #5.10 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 4:23 PM EDT
                AJ in Missouri

                Woo, lets go String Theory, which is one of the few topics, I've yet to read about, I'm an engineer, so I'm constantly obsessing about things of this matter. The current book I'm reading is The Singularity (When Technology transcends Biology) by Ray Kurzweil, good book. Off topic though, so sorry about that.

                Great post, I consider myself a Christian, however as I've learned to be more open, in college I've had many a discussion with people of different religions (including those that don't have one). So it's bad that as a christian I've started questioning my own beliefs, but I guess that questioning is knowledge and not being ignorant.

                • 2 votes
                #5.11 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 4:33 PM EDT
                Danny McGee

                The fact that time began at the Big Bang implies that the Universe is eternal. It has existed for all time. The Universe exists independent of time itself. There was no beginning of the Universe itself. There was only the beginning of time and the present state of the Universe.

                How did the Big Bang start expanding without the existence of time? *sigh* This is why I'll never be a physicist.

                • 4 votes
                #5.12 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 4:36 PM EDT
                Adam Kemp

                There are more dimensions than the ones we're aware of. Time is one dimension. A change started happening with respect to that dimension, and that's what we think of as time. It's all just math, though.

                • 4 votes
                #5.13 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 6:29 PM EDT
                spiffie

                How did the Big Bang start expanding without the existence of time? *sigh* This is why I'll never be a physicist.

                Yeah, that is a mind-bender.

                One possible way to think about it is to wonder what the singularity which existed before the Big Bang would mean quantum states. For instance, how do we distinguish between two points in time? An easy way would be to think about a bouncing ball. We observe time with respect to the bouncing ball as changes in the ball's position as it moves through its bounce. Similarly, differences between moments on the scale of a Universe might be the sum total of changes in quantum states as different quantum wave forms collapse to certainties and new quantum wave forms are generated.

                What would a singularity of near infinite mass and density do to quantum behavior? It's hard to say with the tools we have now, but it might mean either that all quantum waves have collapsed or that all quantum waves are in flux. If the entire system is constant, effectively there's no way to determine one moment from any other moment, just like a ball that is completely still is no longer changing position.

                Another way to think about it is to go the sci-fi route. Sometimes sci-fi uses the concept of time being "frozen", by a device or what-have-you. What would it mean for time to be frozen completely throughout the entire universe with no external observer? That's kind of an "If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around to hear it" questions, but I think it gets a little bit of the sense of what it would mean for time as we observe it to not exist.

                That's all speculation, by the way, but it might be one way of thinking about it.

                • 2 votes
                #5.14 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 6:33 PM EDT
                Reply
                Samantha Gluck

                Very interesting piece.

                I am an atheist. The mere sight of that sentence, I'm sure, causes many to cringe. I only hope, however, that through the course of this piece I have alleviated you, the reader, of this gut reaction, if only just a little bit.

                Indeed it was another professed atheist on Newsvine that alleviated that gut reaction of cringing. I won't name him, but perusing his articles, comments, and professed beliefs showed me that the usual cringe is a wrong reaction to the atheist. When telling stories to my husband about my various friends on NV, I often refer to this individual (in a respectful fun loving way) as the 'pretend atheist' or the 'fake atheist'. This makes it easier for my husband to keep up with all the people I talk about and keep them straight. Assigning a characteristic to them helps. Anyway, I jokingly refer to him that way, because it is the first time in my life I have not cringed when someone said he/she was atheist. You are the second.

                • 3 votes
                Reply#6 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 1:25 PM EDT
                E.D.Kain

                Heh...Samantha, thanks! Like your new avatar, too, by the way!

                • 2 votes
                #6.1 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 4:06 PM EDT
                Samantha Gluck

                Thank you, Kain. :)

                • 2 votes
                #6.2 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 4:10 PM EDT
                Reply
                Steve Mock

                Nice one, Danny.

                I'm no scientist - nor theologian - but could not the inside and outside of your room be made of the same stuff?

                • 3 votes
                Reply#7 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 3:55 PM EDT
                Danny McGee

                There's an "infinite universes" or "multiverse" theory (and I use the word theory pretty lightly here) going around that suggests our existence isn't the only one, but that there are an infinite number of universes existing across multiple dimensions. I guess that would fit the description of there being something outside our universe that is both natural (i.e., not supernatural) and unreachable, but again, I'm skeptical and mostly uninterested in "theories" that can't really be tested. So my answer is a definite "maybe." :P I'm planning on doing a weekly series of articles (starting today with String Theory) that examines concepts on the fuzzy borders of science and pseudoscience. I might tackle infinite universes for one of those; it would certainly be interesting.

                • 4 votes
                #7.1 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 4:11 PM EDT
                E.D.Kain

                Really great read (and only slightly off-topic) is A Short History of Nearly Everything.

                • 3 votes
                #7.2 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 4:34 PM EDT
                Gary Shaw

                Danny.....I couldn't agree more. There ARE multiple Universes. To believe that our Universe is the only one in an "infinite" void, would be like believing that we are the only living beings in all of time and space. Rather nieve I believe.

                • 1 vote
                #7.3 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 4:50 PM EDT
                AJ in Missouri

                ED that's a great book, I've only got the abridged version on audio, but I love listening to it on long trips, and I'd recommend it as well

                  #7.4 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 8:10 PM EDT
                  Reply
                  nearing

                  Good job, Danny.

                  • 3 votes
                  Reply#8 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 4:39 PM EDT
                  clo

                  Jesus said that He was the only way and the only truth and the only life. He followed that with, No one can know the Father except by Him. And, anyone that tried to come in another way was a thief and robber. With this in mind, all people are atheists until they come to this knowledge and relationship with God, through Jesus His son.

                  • 5 votes
                  #9 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 4:44 PM EDT
                  MightyMait

                  This raises the question: who is Jesus? Is Jesus just a historical figure from two millennia ago, or is Jesus something/someone more universal? Is it possible that the faithful in other cultures know Jesus by a different name (like, say, "Guru")?

                  • 1 vote
                  #9.1 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 6:50 PM EDT
                  Gary Shaw

                  Clo...thanks for your insight....but you are off subject. We are discussing "science" not "religion". God is a religious concept...not a scientific one.

                    #9.2 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 6:56 PM EDT
                    MightyMait

                    We are discussing "science" not "religion". God is a religious concept...not a scientific one.

                    Huh???

                    Atheism is about science? Atheists keep telling me it's simply about a lack of a belief in God. Of course, I find that such a lack of belief tends to go hand in hand with an irrational faith in science.

                    • 3 votes
                    #9.3 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 7:13 PM EDT
                    Adam Kemp

                    Actually, the correlation is that the rationality needed to understand science tends to lead people to rationally reject belief in God. There is a correlation, but atheism and science are independent.

                    • 3 votes
                    #9.4 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 7:36 PM EDT
                    MightyMait

                    Fair enough.

                    Spiritualists, unlike many materialists, can employ reason as a tool when circumstances call for it and set reason aside when other circumstances require.

                    • 1 vote
                    #9.5 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 8:28 PM EDT
                    Danny McGee

                    Clo...thanks for your insight....but you are off subject. We are discussing "science" not "religion". God is a religious concept...not a scientific one.

                    Nah, I wouldn't say he/she's off-topic. This discussions this article is going to spawn will understandably go in a lot of different directions. Science is one of them, and religion is another. I'm totally fine with that.

                    • 2 votes
                    #9.6 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 8:32 PM EDT
                    Jonathan D. Miller

                    We are discussing "science" not "religion". God is a religious concept...not a scientific one.

                    Actually the article is about atheism, not science. Atheism is a lack of belief in God (or gods), where Theism is the belief in God (or gods.)

                    Science on the other hand is our understanding of the natural world, what we can observe and experience with our senses.

                    They are two distinct subjects and both the theist and atheist can understand and accept science.

                    Actually, the correlation is that the rationality needed to understand science tends to lead people to rationally reject belief in God.

                    I disagree. I know many brilliant people with the rationality needed to understand science (one of my good friends recently received his PhD in marine biology,) and that reason has not led to a rejection of God.

                    I am perfectly capable to learn and comprehend science, while still maintaining my theological beliefs.

                    • 5 votes
                    #9.7 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 8:40 PM EDT
                    Jojo50

                    Yes clo my friend and Jesus also said that"They hated me and they also will hate you". I am very thankful that I am a believer! I have the Faith that Jesus is Lord and that there is more to life then ,that we are born ,live a few years and then we just die! That is one difference in believing and not believing!

                    • 3 votes
                    #9.8 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 9:10 PM EDT
                    spiffie

                    That is one difference in believing and not believing!

                    Yes, lifelong delusion is one major difference, I agree.

                    • 2 votes
                    #9.9 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 9:21 PM EDT
                    Jonathan D. Miller

                    Yes, lifelong delusion is one major difference, I agree.

                    Thats real civil and high-minded of you spiffie.

                    Its one thing to not believe what others believe, for whatever reason, but calling people delusional for holding those values is uncalled for.

                    I've marked your comment as inflammatory.

                    • 6 votes
                    #9.10 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 10:52 PM EDT
                    Danny McGee

                    Spiffie: I appreciate and greatly value your contributions here, and I certainly understand the tendency to get heated in discussions like this, but please keep it civil.

                    Jojo: Yes, hallelujah, that's wonderful. I appreciate you reading but I don't understand the point of your comment unless it's simply to be very vaguely confrontational. I'd ask that you make sure any further contributions are actually productive to the discussion and not just pointing out that your beliefs are way awesomer than mine. Paul said in Ephesians 4:29 to "Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear." (ESV, emphasis mine)

                    I couldn't decide whether to delete just one or both of those comments so I'm going to just let them both remain with a warning.

                    • 3 votes
                    #9.11 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 11:11 PM EDT
                    spiffie

                    Well, it won't hurt my feelings if you delete it.

                    I actually debated with myself a while before posting that one. I had deliberately left it ambiguous because I thought it might be funny (i.e. is the delusion believing or not believing). I guess my own views are too well-known to make that one work, and it went over like a lead balloon.

                    C'est la vie.

                    • 2 votes
                    #9.12 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 11:22 PM EDT
                    Adam Kemp

                    I know many brilliant people with the rationality needed to understand science (one of my good friends recently received his PhD in marine biology,) and that reason has not led to a rejection of God.

                    Did you not see the word "tends" in my statement? It is an undeniable statistical fact that scientists tend to be atheists. It's not a universal, and there's nothing inherent in science that makes people atheist other than the simple fact that to be a good scientist you must have a strong respect for reason and the scientific method, and those don't usually go well with religion. Many scientists are able to build up little walls in their mind to separate their scientific, rational brain from their irrational, arbitrary religious beliefs. Most can't do that, though. Thus most scientists reject religion.

                    • 3 votes
                    #9.13 - Fri Sep 5, 2008 12:31 AM EDT
                    clo

                    I can see by the many responses that I stirred the pot and struck a nerve with many! Which is good! Atheism is really a religion. It is a formulated belief system that purposely excludes God. Many people want to exclude God because, if there really is a God, then there is some absolutes in life. If we deal with those absolutes, then it will be necessary to lay down some of the things we do or believe and we are unwilling to do so. Then it is inconvenient to believe in God governs mankind by these moral absolutes. But there is another aspect or variable to people not believing. One thing is many Christians fail to provide a good example of Christ like living. The command that says, "though shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain", does not speak of using God's name along with explicits, like our moms and grandmothers taught us. It speaks of taking the name of Jesus as our own, and calling Him Lord (boss). It speaks of saying you have a relationship with Him and don't let Him change your life and when you live a life contrary to a professed relationship with Him.

                    As far as science and my faith. I feel science and real faith and creationism all agree. The fact is some things that scientist thought were true and based their assumptions upon were not true and they had to recount and backtrack some. I have not problem with true science. There are many scientists that also profess faith in God.

                    • 4 votes
                    #9.14 - Fri Sep 5, 2008 9:39 AM EDT
                    Samantha Gluck

                    As far as science and my faith. I feel science and real faith and creationism all agree. The fact is some things that scientist thought were true and based their assumptions upon were not true and they had to recount and backtrack some. I have not problem with true science. There are many scientists that also profess faith in God.

                    Good point clo.

                    • 3 votes
                    #9.15 - Fri Sep 5, 2008 10:51 AM EDT
                    Adam Kemp

                    Atheism is really a religion. It is a formulated belief system that purposely excludes God.

                    No. It's a lack of belief. That's it.

                    Many people want to exclude God because, if there really is a God, then there is some absolutes in life.

                    Atheists don't reject the concept of "absolutes". I for one vehemently defend the idea that there is an objective reality. In my experience, it's spiritual people (like MightyMait) who say otherwise. Still, some atheists believe that reality is subjective, and some believe it's objective. Some are nihilists, but most are not. I certainly am not.

                    Then it is inconvenient to believe in God governs mankind by these moral absolutes.

                    Religion does not lead to moral absolutes. It leads to completely arbitrary morality that is entirely subjective. Read this for a more detailed explanation.

                    • 3 votes
                    #9.16 - Fri Sep 5, 2008 12:38 PM EDT
                    Danny McGee

                    Atheism is really a religion. It is a formulated belief system that purposely excludes God.

                    *Sigh*

                    Why are so many religious people, and Christians in particular, so utterly hellbent on defining atheism as a "religion"? When I say that I am nonreligious, what is so difficult about responding with a "Fair enough" and accepting that? Are you so insecure in your faith that you feel the need to force the concept of religion onto my worldview, because you feel it puts us on level ground whereas otherwise you might find your epistemology to be intellectually inferior to mine? And furthermore, how does one solitary statement of nonbelief in one specific concept, "I do not believe in God," constitute a "formulated belief system"? Nietzsche also did not believe in God, but that is literally the one and only belief I share with him. I almost categorically reject the entirety of his philosophy beyond this single point. How, in your mind, does this make me and him part of the same "religion"?

                    Many people want to exclude God because, if there really is a God, then there is some absolutes in life. If we deal with those absolutes, then it will be necessary to lay down some of the things we do or believe and we are unwilling to do so. Then it is inconvenient to believe in God governs mankind by these moral absolutes.

                    Give me a break. Do not presume to tell me what I believe and why I believe it, or I will return the favor. I could just as easily say many people want to include God in their worldview because it is a crutch, because without God they must accept that this worldly life is as good as it gets, and they're so woefully unhappy with life that they must invent a better one for themselves after this one is over. I could say that you must believe in some sort of convenient, cookie-cutter set of absolute moral standards by which to live your life because your mind is so pitifully limited you can't imagine how to be moral or even what morality is without having it packaged, pre-processed and hand-fed to you by some divine imaginary friend.

                    I could say all of those things and more, but I won't, because I don't presume to know why you believe what you do, I merely take you at your word and respect you for that. I would appreciate if you could show me the same common courtesy and come down from that high horse you're sitting on, because he's @!$%#ting all over my carpet and it's starting to stink.

                    • 6 votes
                    #9.17 - Fri Sep 5, 2008 12:51 PM EDT
                    clo

                    Adam Kemp,
                    You can try to convince yourself that being an atheist is not a religion, but the fervor in which the atheist tries to propagate their belief system smacks of religion. I personally don't have a religion, but a relationship with the Almighty. So I am less religious than the atheist!

                    • 2 votes
                    #9.18 - Fri Sep 5, 2008 12:59 PM EDT
                    Jonathan D. Miller

                    Why are so many religious people, and Christians in particular, so utterly hellbent on defining atheism as a "religion"? When I say that I am nonreligious, what is so difficult about responding with a "Fair enough" and accepting that?

                    I wonder, if maybe the issue is how we define "religion"? Maybe if we all had a concise definition that we all agreed upon then this issue would not continue to crop up.

                    I personally believe that EVERYONE is religious, and follows a "religion." And by that I mean that we all have a set of values and beliefs that we accept as truth.

                    • 5 votes
                    #9.19 - Fri Sep 5, 2008 1:22 PM EDT
                    Danny McGee

                    Jonathan: There is certainly a dissonance in definition. Einstein once defined his awe for the magnificence of the universe as a religion and sometimes defined his work as an attempt to understand the mind of God. Then there are those, like clo, who believe that their "relationship with God" does not constitute a religion. I think, on a subjective level, that religion is a very personal thing and it's up to the individual as to whether they would classify their worldview as "religious." If we want to be objective about it, we could pick up a dictionary and determine whether a belief or set of beliefs fits the definition. But I think a definition of the word "religion" that encompasses everything is meaningless.

                    I personally believe that EVERYONE is religious, and follows a "religion." And by that I mean that we all have a set of values and beliefs that we accept as truth.

                    I believe there is a coffee table to my right. I believe this because I can see it, touch it, feel it, hear the noise it makes when I knock on it, and I have reasonable confidence in the fact that it's a reliable perch for my Xbox 360, that its surface is solid and the device is not going to fall through the wood and be dashed on the floor. That's a set of beliefs, but is it a religion?

                    • 3 votes
                    #9.20 - Fri Sep 5, 2008 2:32 PM EDT
                    Adam Kemp

                    I also try to propagate the ideals of libertarianism, but that's not a religion, is it? Do you know what "religion" actually means?

                    • 5 votes
                    #9.21 - Fri Sep 5, 2008 2:33 PM EDT
                    cloDeleted
                    Danny McGee

                    You can try to convince yourself that being an atheist is not a religion, but the fervor in which the atheist tries to propagate their belief system smacks of religion. I personally don't have a religion, but a relationship with the Almighty. So I am less religious than the atheist!

                    Clo, if you wish to parade your self-righteousness around, you can do it elsewhere. If you want to share your beliefs and have a peaceful discussion with the rest of us in a reasonable and graceful manner then feel free, but your baseless antagonism is not welcome here. I would remind you once again of Ephesians 4:29 and assure you that your speech is not edifying anyone or giving grace to anyone hearing, least of all to your intended audience. I would also implore you to consider Colossians 4:5-6 which instructs you to conduct yourself wisely toward outsiders, making your words graceful and "seasoned with salt." The poking and prodding and button-pushing is the very opposite of how the God you claim to follow instructs you to deal with nonbelievers, and it is certainly not the way Christ conducted himself.

                    1 Corinthians 10
                    23
                    "All things are lawful," but not all things are helpful. "All things are lawful," but not all things build up. 24 Let no one seek his own good, but the good of his neighbor. [...] 31 So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. 32 Give no offense to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God, 33 just as I try to please everyone in everything I do, not seeking my own advantage, but that of many, that they may be saved.

                    Romans 12
                    3
                    For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. [...] 9 Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good. 10 Love one another with brotherly affection. Outdo one another in showing honor. [...] 14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep. 16 Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be wise in your own sight. 17 Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. 18 If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all.

                    • 6 votes
                    #9.23 - Fri Sep 5, 2008 2:56 PM EDT
                    clo

                    Danny sensored me for saying something about the title. I guess he really did not want real opinions from both sides. I did not break the code of conduct in any way.

                    • 1 vote
                    #9.24 - Fri Sep 5, 2008 3:02 PM EDT
                    Danny McGee

                    You're being pointlessly antagonistic and not participating in the discussion in any meaningful way. Your only purpose here is to cause offense and until such time as you can compose a thoughtful comment which actually directly responds to any of the arguments being made by others, your posts will continue to be deleted. If you want to delude yourself that I'm just "sensoring" you because I don't agree with you, you can look to the comments here by Jonathan and MightyMait for examples of how to disagree respectfully.

                    • 5 votes
                    #9.25 - Fri Sep 5, 2008 3:07 PM EDT
                    clo

                    Danny,
                    my conversation was peaceful, graceful and with manners. Seems I struck a sensitive nerve with you!

                    • 1 vote
                    #9.26 - Fri Sep 5, 2008 3:07 PM EDT
                    Danny McGee

                    You've struck no more of a nerve than MightyMait did by referring to acceptance of physical evidence as "faith." The difference is he responds to arguments, he answers questions, he formulates thoughtful responses. There's actual dialogue there. With you there's nothing of the sort, you just keep going "Yeah-huh!" and refuse to respond to any points made by anyone else. Your comments have the conversational depth of a spit puddle. Your only intention is to be irritating, as evidenced by your repeatedly pointing out that you've "struck nerves" which must be a "good thing." If you want to have a rational discussion then feel free to start responding to arguments, but if you want to be vacuously irritating then you can do it somewhere else.

                    • 4 votes
                    #9.27 - Fri Sep 5, 2008 3:24 PM EDT
                    Jonathan D. Miller

                    I wonder. Could it be that another category exists. We have theist, who believe in God and thus have "religion" we have atheist, who simply lack belief (no religion) and then we have anti-theist who are dogmatic, nay religious in their disbelief of God. Sure these anti-theist are atheist, but they take it a step further to actually attack, even "persecute" those who are theist.

                    Danny, you are an atheist. I respect that, and I respect you. There are however anti-theists who are religious in their beliefs, and just like religious radicals are dangerous for the extremisms, the anti-theist is dangerous for the same reasons.

                    • 4 votes
                    #9.28 - Fri Sep 5, 2008 3:32 PM EDT
                    MightyMait

                    You've struck no more of a nerve than MightyMait did by referring to acceptance of physical evidence as "faith." The difference is he responds to arguments, he answers questions, he formulates thoughtful responses. There's actual dialogue there.

                    Thanks, Danny. I'm doing my best to avoid my own prickish tendencies.

                    Your quotes from the Bible are rather poignant.

                    I don't have much to add to this sub-thread, but I *did* want to address this one point.

                    How, in your mind, does this make me and him part of the same "religion"?

                    I've argued that atheism is a religion (in practice if not by strict definition), though I can certainly see the point of many atheists who prefer to keep the definition pure and simple.

                    However, I can nominally share the same religion (as in a basic set of assumptions that are neither provable nor disprovable) with a person while radically disagreeing in terms of interpretations of the foundational assumptions. So, in my mind, you disagreeing widely with Nietsche (sp?) doesn't preclude you from being of the same religion.

                      #9.29 - Fri Sep 5, 2008 3:36 PM EDT
                      clo

                      I was responding to what was said about Atheism not being a religion. The very title of the story you wrote calls it a gospel. That is what you deleted! It was an observation. But on the topic that people were discussing. Also you readily see there were many people who checked off in agreement to my comments. So, yes, it was you only that was disturbed by my comments. Now I guess it is time to shake the dust off of my feet and leave.

                      • 1 vote
                      #9.30 - Fri Sep 5, 2008 3:38 PM EDT
                      Danny McGee

                      I wonder. Could it be that another category exists. We have theist, who believe in God and thus have "religion" we have atheist, who simply lack belief (no religion) and then we have anti-theist who are dogmatic, nay religious in their disbelief of God. Sure these anti-theist are atheist, but they take it a step further to actually attack, even "persecute" those who are theist.

                      I can possibly agree with that, or at least admit that certain brands of "anti-theism" have certain religion-like properties. I would even say there are theists who are not religious merely by their belief in a higher power (Jefferson, Paine and other deists from that era come to mind).

                      So, in my mind, you disagreeing widely with Nietsche (sp?) doesn't preclude you from being of the same religion.

                      Honestly, I wouldn't even say I agree with Nietzsche's foundational assumptions. I would regard Nihilism as his foundational epistemology. His atheism was merely a consequence of that, not the other way around. Similarly, my atheism is a consequence of my foundational epistemology, which is empiricism. So we both share one common belief (atheism), but this belief is the consequence of two different foundational philosophies, which leads to our overall worldviews also being wildly different despite this one similarity. I share more beliefs, values and ethics with most Christians than I do with Nietzsche.

                      • 4 votes
                      #9.31 - Fri Sep 5, 2008 4:01 PM EDT
                      spiffie

                      So we both share one common belief (atheism), but this belief is the consequence of two different foundational philosophies, which leads to our overall worldviews also being wildly different despite this one similarity.

                      Well said.

                      Regarding "religious" atheists: yeah, sure. There are some people who are dogmatically and irrationally committed to atheism, and who say some spectacularly bone-headed things arguing for their belief. I suppose one could say that an atheist belief which cannot effectively be argued rationally is probably more similar to a dogmatic belief in any religion (as distinguished from some of the more rational arguments for religion, which are actually intellectually interesting), and so might be "religious" in a very archaic, literal sense (i.e. the sense of the Latin word that religion is derived from).

                      So one could say there are "religious" atheists in a very loose usage of "religious", but I don't believe these constitute the major part of atheism.

                      • 5 votes
                      #9.32 - Fri Sep 5, 2008 4:13 PM EDT
                      Jojo50

                      You should post "For Atheist Only" Sorry but you seem to only want your views! So as a Christian I will remove myself, You don't have to block me!
                      Have a Good Day!

                      • 1 vote
                      #9.33 - Fri Sep 5, 2008 4:59 PM EDT
                      happygirl-361049

                      Good idea Jojo50!

                      • 1 vote
                      #9.34 - Fri Sep 5, 2008 9:45 PM EDT
                      Adam Kemp

                      I'm pretty sure that the title was meant to be clever and satirical. The first paragraph is meant to sound like a list of official atheist dogma, but the next paragraph goes on to say that all of that is wrong:

                      ...I have reason to believe that much of this negative sentiment stems from some of the false notions of atheism mentioned above.

                      If you actually read the article then you would understand the title. Apparently you didn't bother.

                      • 3 votes
                      #9.35 - Fri Sep 5, 2008 10:36 PM EDT
                      MightyMait

                      I share more beliefs, values and ethics with most Christians than I do with Nietzsche.

                      I see your point.

                      I hope you see mine (which was not contingent upon you and Nietzsche being bosom buddies) that people *can* be nominally adherents of the same religion and also have radically-differing world views and interpretations of their shared religious tenets.

                      In any case, it's not a point worth belaboring.

                      • 2 votes
                      #9.36 - Tue Sep 9, 2008 5:52 PM EDT
                      Steve Mock

                      Your quotes from the Bible are rather poignant.

                      For sure. If you started a Bible study, Danny, I'd want to be there.

                      • 1 vote
                      #9.37 - Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:26 AM EDT
                      Danny McGee

                      Heh, thanks, Steve. Although I doubt I'll be starting any Bible studies anytime soon. :) The forums at CGR are a very good resource for solid Biblical discussion, particularly the Theology forum, but I haven't been there in years so I have no idea if the community is as good as it used to be.

                      • 2 votes
                      #9.38 - Thu Sep 18, 2008 4:36 PM EDT
                      Reply
                      dandemacy

                      I, as a Christian, have always respected the atheist point of view, if not the individual atheist. Unfortunately, many of the more vocal atheists are filled with vitriolic hatred against anyone that believes in any religion for any reason. Especially Christians.

                      But I read every word of your article, and have gained a greater understanding of what you, and possibly other atheists, believe, even though I don't believe it myself. I also understand, and have for a long time, that there is nothing I can do to prove to you that there is something outside the room, and that something has an infinite love for you.

                      Be well.

                      • 7 votes
                      Reply#10 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 7:06 PM EDT
                      Danny McGee

                      Thank you for reading and for the kind words, dandemacy. I certainly understand your beliefs and your sympathy - I was a very devout Christian for a long time - but like you, while I understand it, I can no longer believe in it. I do, however, respect your beliefs and have no desire to prove you wrong as long as we can coexist peacefully.

                      • 6 votes
                      #10.1 - Thu Sep 4, 2008 8:37 PM EDT
                      happygirl-361049

                      In saying what you have said Dandemacy you have won. To argue or debate a subject like this is a no win situation. It is better to be a good Christian and walk away than to try to get information to those who do not want to hear. It is up to them to believe the way they do or not. Like an alcoholic they have to WANT to change (their beliefs). To say their Religion I agree is wrong. They have none. How hollow is that? Have a good evening all!

                        #10.2 - Fri Sep 5, 2008 9:53 PM EDT
                        Reply
                        Jojo50

                        I feel that this is only an article for Atheists! You did talk about what happens when we die! I only commented on that. OK Atheists believe in science and i believe in God! I respect what you believe in I am not trying to change anyone.

                        • 1 vote
                        Reply#11 - Fri Sep 5, 2008 8:21 AM EDT
                        Jonathan D. Miller

                        Theist can believe in science too!

                        • 7 votes
                        #11.1 - Fri Sep 5, 2008 9:38 AM EDT
                        Reply
                        Steve-452464

                        I for one respect your belief in the absence of no God, and no life after death. With that being said, I have always looked at life like an insurance policy. I believe in God and who Jesus Christ was and I also believe that one must have a personal realtionshp with God in order to experience a wonderful life after death.
                        IMaybe one doesn't need this type of insurance during your walk here on earth, but I would hate to die and find out when I'm standing before God that it all was necessary. I guess I just don't want to get before God and have him say "Ya know Steve, you were a great guy and did many wonderful things for many people........... But

                          Reply#12 - Fri Sep 5, 2008 1:18 PM EDT
                          renderedtruthDeleted
                          renderedtruthDeleted
                          renderedtruthDeleted
                          MightyMait

                          This, to me, does the exact opposite of cheapening the value of life. On the contrary, this concept makes life literally infinitely more valuable.

                          I wanted to address this point.

                          On a *personal* level, having only a single life *would* make that life all the more precious. On the global (or universal) level, however, it makes an individual life practically worthless. It is precisely this view that allows less altruistic atheists (like the frequently mentioned Stalin, Mao, etc.) to treat individuals as totally expendable in the interests of the state or their own personal ambitions.

                          While your own personal expression, Danny, truly is admirable, the same assumptions about the nature of life can also lead to more self-centered persons ruthlessly and desperately focusing on legacy-building. Considering that nothing will remain of their person after their death, they might want to leave some monument to their greatness so that they will be remembered by generations to come.

                          • 1 vote
                          Reply#16 - Tue Sep 9, 2008 5:57 PM EDT
                          Danny McGee

                          True enough. My article was meant as little more than a personal statement of values and interpretation. I'm aware that there are definitely others who don't share my conclusions.

                          • 1 vote
                          #16.1 - Tue Sep 9, 2008 7:00 PM EDT
                          Reply
                          happygirl-361049

                          I cannot say I know anyone who is an Atheist. I try never to talk religion with my friends and others I know unless I hear THEM speak of it first, then I really don't go into it. My beliefs are MINE, as yours are yours. I do have to say I'm sure there are Atheists that are wonderful people, helpful ,sincere etc. I just would have trouble being around them as I feel their negativity would somehow pass on to me. Sorry, it is a very hard topic for me to speak about even. I don't mean to insult anyone. To me it is like they are lacking something I hold very close and dear that has been in my life ALWAYS. Doesn't make me better than them, I know people who are Christian (or say they are) that really don't act it and this is probably some of the reason others prefer not to be. Hope I'm making some sort of sense here. I best close!

                          • 1 vote
                          Reply#17 - Tue Sep 9, 2008 6:17 PM EDT
                          MightyMait

                          I just would have trouble being around them as I feel their negativity would somehow pass on to me.

                          Danny doesn't strike me as particularly negative. Rather, his testimony here is rather positive and uplifting.

                          While other atheists in this discussion are certainly very *sober* in their assessment of things, I don't see them as particularly negative. Other atheists (here and elsewhere) *do* certainly seem to have an ax to grind and can be quite bitter. They tend to be people who've had religion foisted upon them and have rebelled against it. One of the most rabid atheists I've met on Newsvine claims he was once a seminarian studying for the priesthood.

                          As for keeping our beliefs to ourselves, there are certainly times when that is prudent to do, but I find that, it is in respectful, meaningful, vigorous discussion that I'm able to clarify just what it is that I believe and why. These discussions can certainly test our faith, but they can also strengthen it. If somebody has something they find to be of great value, it's only natural to want to share it with others.

                          • 1 vote
                          #17.1 - Tue Sep 9, 2008 6:31 PM EDT
                          happygirl-361049

                          You know there are times when there is really nothing to add. I guess this is one of them for me . I could share being a Christian with you but, I'm afraid it would be a big debate. I like discussions and respect from both sides but I don't feel this would happen. Gut feeling I guess more than anything. I can't even express how happy I am with my beliefs and feel they will be respected. You certainally don't have to agree with them nor do I even think that I'd want to change your beliefs by something I said. So it is respect I will close right now. I'm sure there are those out there who really have something they want to say so .........have a good evening everyone!

                            #17.2 - Tue Sep 9, 2008 6:54 PM EDT
                            Danny McGee

                            I greatly appreciate the respect, happygirl, although I have to admit I'm saddened that you feel atheism comes with it an inherent "negativity" - even in those who are kind-hearted people - that might rub off on you. I can assure you I'm just about the least "negative" person I know (and I have a few good Christian friends), but I don't wish to sway you from your beliefs. Anyway, take care, and thanks for reading.

                            • 1 vote
                            #17.3 - Tue Sep 9, 2008 7:05 PM EDT
                            happygirl-361049

                            Thank you! It takes a REAL man to understand. Sorry I said "negativity". I didn't intend to judge you or anyone else. It is just hard sometimes to express how one feels. I did say that I was sure there were some who are good people, right? Ha! Ha! There are good Christians who do not shove religion or beliefs down someone elses throat. I would like to believe that is me. Also I try not to judge others, I KNOW there is a being GREATER than I who will do that someday. I try to accept everyone as they are, even if I don't understand where they are coming from. I hope others do me as well. Part as Buds? I will say no more. Thanks again from HAPPYGIRL!

                            • 2 votes
                            #17.4 - Tue Sep 9, 2008 7:16 PM EDT
                            Reply
                            miniski5

                            oh my god you could possibly be the most philisofically smart person i have ever heard. way to break the racism for us atheists in a way that doesnt ridicule other peoples religion.

                            • 1 vote
                            Reply#18 - Tue Sep 9, 2008 7:09 PM EDT
                            Danny McGee

                            oh my god you could possibly be the most philisofically smart person i have ever heard.

                            Far from it...I'm actually nearly illiterate when it comes to philosophy. But thank you for the compliments, it's much appreciated. :)

                            • 1 vote
                            #18.1 - Tue Sep 9, 2008 7:13 PM EDT
                            Reply
                            Steven P.

                            Danny, do you know 'all' the characteristics of the room? Before you can ask what is 'outside' the room, you have to look for doors that indicate there is an outside. Have you spent any time looking for those doors? Here's a hint: Beside looking for a door on the walls, you should look for a door located within you. Remember you are a part of that room.

                            Of course, if you are not interested in looking for any doors, that fine as well. If you have prepared yourself for what you feel is the finality of your death, and can accept it, that's OK. But just in case, you find that you are still 'around' when you crossover, hold this round tuit in your pocket: have a positive outlook on life, and love others as yourself in this life. You won't be faulted for disbelief, just as long as you recognize yourself and who it is that greets you on the other side. That is what counts; to be able to recognize yourself and others in that new reality.

                            Hell is the loss of ability to recognize yourself and loved ones due to pride, anger, despair, self-loathing; they deface your soul and make it unrecognizable to those cruising past you. The only souls you will recognize are proud, angry, desparate, self-loathing souls. Not good company when you would like to get yourself outta that snair.

                            • 1 vote
                            Reply#19 - Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:18 PM EDT
                            Steven P.

                            I see atheism as an irrational concept. When we discover the things in the room, and then discover things within ourself, we start to wonder why it is that we see wonder, and perceive wonder. If nature is not designed, has no purpose, has no set goals, then it has no purpose in creating living organisms that have high intelligence. What is the purpose to be able to talk to yourself, to be able to wonder, dream, conceive and recognize abstract concepts, to be able to construct complex machinery to view the stars and quantum particles. Gorillas do just fine without their frontal lobe. So do elephants and tortoises.

                            If nature is the cause of our intelligence, nature itself must contain intelligence. An appeal to spontaneity to explain the rise of life, is not a better explanation that God since God is a positive claim, where spontaneity is a negative claim. How to you prove a negative claim? You cannot short circuit infinite regress by blurting 'spontaneity' did it.

                            If its a choice between God and spontaneity, God wins hands down.

                            Now time to hop onto my prayship and cruise through my portal to eternity.

                              #20 - Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:42 PM EDT
                              Danny McGee

                              What is the purpose to be able to talk to yourself, to be able to wonder, dream, conceive and recognize abstract concepts, to be able to construct complex machinery to view the stars and quantum particles. Gorillas do just fine without their frontal lobe. So do elephants and tortoises.

                              Why do you think there has to be a "purpose" in it? Among hominids, intelligence was an evolutionary advantage. The smarter people survived and mated and had children, and the dumber people were killed. Gene selection continued in this manner until Homo sapien was produced.

                              If nature is the cause of our intelligence, nature itself must contain intelligence.

                              Why?

                              An appeal to spontaneity to explain the rise of life, is not a better explanation that God since God is a positive claim, where spontaneity is a negative claim.

                              Why do you draw a false dichotomy between "God" and "spontaneity." No one is arguing that humans just "spontaneously" happened. It's a little more complicated than that.

                              • 3 votes
                              #20.1 - Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:03 PM EDT
                              Steven P.

                              Why do you think there has to be a "purpose" in it? Among hominids, intelligence was an evolutionary advantage. The smarter people survived and mated and had children, and the dumber people were killed. Gene selection continued in this manner until Homo sapien was produced.

                              You can't brush off human capability to mere evolutionary advantage. That is such an understatement. Humanity is simply over engineered. We don't need all the extra bells and whistles we have in comparison to other primates and mammals. Again, they do just fine without them.

                              Second, I keep hearing this ' why does life have to have a purpose' refrain. The fact that you can conceive of the concept of purpose in itself is evidence of purpose. If nature and life have no purpose, you mind would not 'evolve' consciousness and conceive of such ideas as purpose, will, quality. Again, chimps and gorillas do just fine. We, as there genetics close cousins, have no evolutionary need for all the extra bells and whistles. Only purpose adequately explains our brain activity.

                              If nature is the cause of our intelligence, nature itself must contain intelligence.


                              Why?

                              Explain how intelligence came from non-intelligence? In the first early organisms that had no bodily systems, what compelled complexification? The more complex, the more astronomical the odds of survival, as the number of potential threats/weaknesses to the organism increases proportionally with the amount of complexity. Yet the vast majority of organisms continually bucked these gargantuan odds, and just kept right on complexifying. It is irrational to believe that ALL these organism were so 'lucky', let alone just one of them.

                              The only logical conclusion is that organisms already possessed the information necessary to build themselves inspite of those unbelievable odds.

                              Why do you draw a false dichotomy between "God" and "spontaneity." No one is arguing that humans just "spontaneously" happened. It's a little more complicated than that.

                              Sure they do. Spontaneity (I call it 'chance in the gaps') is simply dressed up as small-step change. It is sophistry to contend that if we reduce the number of steps, that somehow it is more palpible and believable that molecules could transform themselves from non-life into living forms, all by themselves; simply by taking baby steps. No one has the slightest evidence that non-living chemicals did in fact transform themselves into living forms, all on their own. And there is no way they could. It is a negative claim and unprovable. Yet proponents of evolution will swear on the Bible :) that they have it all figured out. It's a disingenous claim.

                              • 2 votes
                              #20.2 - Thu Sep 11, 2008 6:24 AM EDT
                              jpark

                              Steven P.,

                              I like the way you see and explain things. Even the simplest forms of life are tremendously complex. Anyone who tries to say that life 'just happened' is going to have to explain how such complexity 'just happened'.

                              • 3 votes
                              #20.3 - Thu Sep 11, 2008 11:50 AM EDT
                              Adam Kemp

                              If nature and life have no purpose, you mind would not 'evolve' consciousness and conceive of such ideas as purpose, will, quality.

                              That is a complete non sequitur.

                              Explain how intelligence came from non-intelligence?

                              Why do you keep talking about intelligence as if it's a binary trait? Like it suddenly poofed into existence with humans and never existed in any form before. That's not how it works.

                              • 4 votes
                              #20.4 - Thu Sep 11, 2008 12:05 PM EDT
                              Danny McGee

                              You can't brush off human capability to mere evolutionary advantage. That is such an understatement.

                              Okay. Can you construct an argument that isn't totally reliant on personal incredulity?

                              Humanity is simply over engineered. We don't need all the extra bells and whistles we have in comparison to other primates and mammals. Again, they do just fine without them.

                              You can't just compare humans to other primates and mammals and assume that if we're not functionally identical to those species then we must be "over-engineered." When our primate ancestors began moving out of their natural jungle habitats and into open plains, a lot of new adaptations were necessary. Possibly the most rudimentary of these was upright walking which gave us an advantage in that we could see predators coming from farther away. But we needed more than that. The way our bodies were built, we couldn't simply rely on physical strength or speed to survive; we would have been quickly wiped out. We forged tools to help us accomplish certain things, we developed strategy and group tactics to hunt prey and evade predators. Our lack of fur meant we needed to learn how to harness fire to keep ourselves warm in unforgiving climates. All of these things require a level of intelligence superior to that of primates which lived in and adapted to much different natural environments than early hominids. The argument you're trying to make is like saying, "Why do we have lungs? Fish get by just fine without them." Yeah, but fish can't survive outside of water. Likewise, chimps wouldn't be very good at surviving in the sort of environment early hominids had to deal with without a lot of adaptation.

                              Explain how intelligence came from non-intelligence?

                              I have, and now I've expounded on it. Now you need to explain why intelligence requires something more intelligent to produce it, and then explain what created God, and then what created the being that created God, etc.

                              Sure they do. Spontaneity (I call it 'chance in the gaps') is simply dressed up as small-step change. It is sophistry to contend that if we reduce the number of steps, that somehow it is more palpible and believable that molecules could transform themselves from non-life into living forms, all by themselves; simply by taking baby steps. No one has the slightest evidence that non-living chemicals did in fact transform themselves into living forms, all on their own. And there is no way they could. It is a negative claim and unprovable. Yet proponents of evolution will swear on the Bible :) that they have it all figured out. It's a disingenous claim.

                              Now you've switched from evolution to abiogenesis, which is 1) a completely different field, 2) not something I'm qualified to debate as I've not done much research into it, and 3) something any biologist in the world will tell you we most definitely do not have "all figured out." No one is claiming we have it "all figured out." That would be both foolish and ignorant. We don't even have a testable unifying theory of physics. You're trying to attribute to the scientific community a level of pretentiousness that just isn't there. The point of science is to ask questions and try to come up with answers to those questions. It doesn't mean we have all the answers, and there's no guarantee that we will ever have all the answers, but one thing science does not do is throw up its hands and go, "We can't figure it out, so it must have been God!" It takes a lot more confidence in the ability of human intelligence to assume that if we can't immediately come up with an explanation then there is no explanation, than to simply accept that the explanation is currently outside of our grasp.

                              • 3 votes
                              #20.5 - Thu Sep 11, 2008 3:39 PM EDT
                              MightyMait

                              Explain how intelligence came from non-intelligence? In the first early organisms that had no bodily systems, what compelled complexification? The more complex, the more astronomical the odds of survival, as the number of potential threats/weaknesses to the organism increases proportionally with the amount of complexity.

                              Especially considering the Second Law of Thermodynamics (and yes, I realize it only applies to closed systems and ignoring certain laws of physics).

                              Danny's qualifying "in hominids" is certainly a big qualifier. Jellyfish have managed to survive just fine for many millions of years.

                              Likewise, chimps wouldn't be very good at surviving in the sort of environment early hominids had to deal with without a lot of adaptation.

                              True, *and*, we're talking about "adaptation" in this instance, not "evolution" (in the sense of random mutation and natural selection). The driving factor here is intelligence and ingenuity.

                              • 1 vote
                              #20.6 - Thu Sep 11, 2008 5:28 PM EDT
                              Danny McGee

                              True, *and*, we're talking about "adaptation" in this instance, not "evolution" (in the sense of random mutation and natural selection). The driving factor here is intelligence and ingenuity.

                              "Adaptation" is evolution.

                              • 3 votes
                              #20.7 - Thu Sep 11, 2008 7:09 PM EDT
                              MightyMait

                              "Adaptation" is evolution.

                              Not in the strict Darwinian sense (unless I misunderstand). Darwinian evolution depends on random mutations allowing organisms to be better suited to their environments. Adaptation is the process by which organism compensate for *choices* they make in terms of how they live their lives. The evolution of humans over the past 10,000 years or so has been more driven by our lifestyle choices than by our environment. Obviously, there is an element of intelligence and consciousness in this "evolution".

                              • 1 vote
                              #20.8 - Thu Sep 18, 2008 3:06 PM EDT
                              spiffie

                              unless I misunderstand

                              You misunderstand. Adaptation is not a choice made, but a toolset available to a creature. A fish doesn't choose to have fins, although fins are an adaptation to its environment. A finch doesn't choose the size of its beak, although the size of the beak is an adaptation to the type of food available.

                              • 3 votes
                              #20.9 - Thu Sep 18, 2008 3:20 PM EDT
                              MightyMait

                              I understand your examples, spiffie. Do you understand my point about adaptations in humans? Humans have more of a choice than do other animals (or at least it appears to be that way) in terms of diet, where they live, how active they are, etc. With many of the evolutionary pressures abated by technology, our bodies have adapted to many of of our conscious choices.

                              • 1 vote
                              #20.10 - Thu Sep 18, 2008 3:43 PM EDT
                              Ryan Booker

                              If you define adaption as conscious choice, then yes that has nothing to do with evolution (other than the fact that we evolved that ability). However, that's not how adaption is being used above.

                              When talking about evolution adaption means traits that a particular organism has. Like the fish example above. Chimps are adapted to the historical environment they found themselves in. They have adapted to a particular niche.

                              Likewise, humans are adapted to the particular niche we found ourselves in. We have consciousness and intelligence over and above other primates because it was more likely for members of our species with those traits to survive.

                              Or from another point of view, members of our shared ancestor's species diversified into different environments, and the traits that led to success in those environments differed. As such we slowly diverged into separate species.

                              A gradual process. We didn't just start popping out astro physicist. Like any other traits, slight "improvements" meant better reproductive success. What constitutes an improvement is entirely dependent on circumstances. That's why there's is such variety in the animal kingdom.

                              e.g. Organisms with slightly faster reflexes, slightly more curvature in their light sensitive cells, slightly more neurons, etc have measurable advantage over their contemporaries. Statistically they are more likely to survive and such traits spread.

                              As for the beginning of life itself. It's still an open question. Though much headway has been made in recent years. While evolution only seeks to explain what happens once you have life, the origin of life itself is a very interesting and related field.

                              • 3 votes
                              #20.11 - Thu Sep 18, 2008 4:33 PM EDT
                              spiffie

                              Do you understand my point about adaptations in humans?

                              Intelligence is a form of adaptation. Ultimately, it's the adaptation of intelligence that allows us to inhabit such a wide range of environments. Intelligence is just as valid an evolutionary adaptation as fur or claws or beaks.

                              You're attempting to look at the outcomes of the application of intelligence and call those evolutionary choices. They really aren't; they're individual choices made using the evolutionary toolset humans possess.

                              • 4 votes
                              #20.12 - Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:14 PM EDT
                              MightyMait

                              Intelligence is a form of adaptation. Ultimately, it's the adaptation of intelligence that allows us to inhabit such a wide range of environments. Intelligence is just as valid an evolutionary adaptation as fur or claws or beaks.

                              That's a materialistic assumption.

                              To spiritualists, intelligence (as consciousness) is an inherent property in existence. In the temporal plane of relativity, consciousness becomes expressed physically over time, but that consciousness is always present.

                              You're attempting to look at the outcomes of the application of intelligence and call those evolutionary choices.

                              Is that what I'm doing? I'm saying that evolution isn't purely a process of random mutation and natural selection. I'm saying that evolution is driven (in part, at least) by intelligence/consciousness.

                              • 1 vote
                              #20.13 - Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:36 PM EDT
                              spiffie

                              That's a materialistic assumption.

                              No, it's not. You make the mistake of conflating intelligence with consciousness. Human beings aren't the only creatures that exhibit intelligence, nor are they the only creatures that utilize intelligence as an adaptation to improve their survival fitness in the environment.

                              In the temporal plane of relativity, consciousness becomes expressed physically over time, but that consciousness is always present.

                              Nonsense talk. You might as well talk about reversing the polarity in the positronic gelpacks in the forward reflector array.

                              I'm saying that evolution isn't purely a process of random mutation and natural selection.

                              If you left it with this, you'd actually be right. Evolution isn't just those things; there are other components to the theory of evolution, which you'd know if you'd been paying attention to any of our discussions about this in the past. At this point, knowing we've been down this path before, and given that you're apparently not interested in discussing what evolution is, only your neutered straw man version of it, I'm not inclined to expand on it further for you. Go read a book on the subject.

                              • 3 votes
                              #20.14 - Fri Sep 19, 2008 2:27 PM EDT
                              MightyMait

                              You make the mistake of conflating intelligence with consciousness.

                              How is that a mistake?

                              Human beings aren't the only creatures that exhibit intelligence, nor are they the only creatures that utilize intelligence as an adaptation to improve their survival fitness in the environment.

                              How does that fail to support my point (I'm not arguing (as do some Christians) that non-human life forms are soul-less automatons devoid of intelligence and acting purely on instinct)? In fact, I had been thinking precisely of beavers and their dams, ants and their ant-hills, etc.

                              I'm not saying that just human evolution is driven by consciousness and intelligence. I'm saying *all* evolution is, though the effect can be more prominently visible in human activities.

                              • 1 vote
                              #20.15 - Fri Sep 19, 2008 7:36 PM EDT
                              Reply
                              renderedtruthDeleted
                              Brad Leclerc

                              Not sure how I missed this article...and looks like I missed all the fun heh. But just thought I'd pop in to say "great article" and all that.

                              Good stuff. Very good stuff.

                              • 3 votes
                              Reply#22 - Thu Sep 18, 2008 4:02 PM EDT
                              3kyw4law

                              Danny, thank you for a good article and for the insight into aethism.

                              I enjoyed the room scenerio. It was an excellent way of "seeing" the universe.

                              • 1 vote
                              Reply#23 - Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:46 AM EDT
                              Marsha Christ

                              Well personally as Satan in the Flesh of a real Christian woman, I think I got you beat as it relates to prejudice, discrimination and alienation of affection of people who do believe in religions. I also think if GOD wanted to get your attention, SHe would have no problem in getting it.

                              • 1 vote
                              Reply#24 - Wed Sep 24, 2008 4:59 PM EDT
                              Danny McGee

                              Well personally as Satan in the Flesh of a real Christian woman, I think I got you beat as it relates to prejudice, discrimination and alienation of affection of people who do believe in religions.

                              Damn. Godspeed, Marsha.

                              • 2 votes
                              #24.1 - Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:19 PM EDT
                              Marsha Christ

                              Well, I guess I'll take your response as a compliment. Thanks and yes Damn but I tremble in fear much like Thomas Jefferson did knowing GOD is Just and the Almighty will take no side with U.S. in this contest.

                              • 1 vote
                              #24.2 - Thu Sep 25, 2008 1:01 AM EDT
                              Reply
                              sakk

                              I was moved by this! You might want to pick up "Born Cannibal" by James Miles. His work casts doubt on the notion that significant parts of what we call morality are inherited genetically. It wouldn't affect your attitude about why we should be good to each other, and so wouldn't undermine the point of this essay. But it may give you reason to revise some of your ideas about where morality comes from.

                              • 2 votes
                              Reply#25 - Wed Sep 24, 2008 6:13 PM EDT
                              sakk

                              Apologies if this is a double post. It looks like this essay was helpful for several people to understand atheists a little better. You said you can only speak for yourself, but you know, there are many other atheists who feel very similarly. For the most part I could point to this essay if I was in a hurry to explain myself.

                              Do you also have a long list of books you're meaning to read when you have the time? :) Add "Born Cannibal" by James Miles if you can find it. He's made me rethink the sources of morality. I no longer believe that a significant portion of what we call morality is inherited genetically, and since I'm a materialist, that leaves only culture. There appear to be mathematical problems with the stories that root it in kin selection and reciprocal altruism. That's not to say that kin selection and reciprocal altruism don't occur or aren't important, just that they don't appear to be sufficient. But... I'm not a mathematician or a biologist. So all I can do is recommend the book and let others come to their own conclusions.

                              Oh, and "come down from that high horse you're sitting on, because he's @!$%#ting all over my carpet and it's starting to stink"? I lol'd.

                              • 2 votes
                              Reply#26 - Thu Sep 25, 2008 12:31 AM EDT
                              sakk

                              Guh, it was a double post. I just registered and I couldn't get my comments to appear. There must be a queue.

                              Just take it as a double compliment. ;)

                              • 2 votes
                              #26.1 - Thu Sep 25, 2008 12:36 AM EDT
                              Danny McGee

                              I don't have a reading list, but I also don't read a whole lot of books, haha. Thank you (doubly!) for the compliments, they're much appreciated. :) I'll definitely check that out, it sounds very interesting.

                              • 1 vote
                              #26.2 - Thu Sep 25, 2008 2:18 AM EDT
                              sakk

                              I found it in the dollar bin and I don't know how easy it'll be to track down. There is a much less detailed paper on the internet, though. It's called "Evolution versus Evobabble: A Plea for More Bulldogs and Fewer Rottweilers." I'd link it but I think new users can't link. Unfortunately that paper was written for a philosophy journal and doesn't go into the important maths.

                              Back to your essay... I especially like the lead. When I started reading, I groaned and thought "another clueless jerk to tell me that my life can have no meaning without a god." And I kept going just to see the train wreck. What a pleasant relief, though. I'd bet that the lead hooks a certain flavor of presumptive theist who's hungry to have his prejudices reinforced.

                              • 1 vote
                              #26.3 - Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:22 AM EDT
                              Danny McGee

                              I found it in the dollar bin and I don't know how easy it'll be to track down.

                              I'm pretty resourceful. ;)

                              Back to your essay... I especially like the lead. When I started reading, I groaned and thought "another clueless jerk to tell me that my life can have no meaning without a god." And I kept going just to see the train wreck. What a pleasant relief, though. I'd bet that the lead hooks a certain flavor of presumptive theist who's hungry to have his prejudices reinforced.

                              Heh, that was partially the goal. Thanks again for all the kind words. You might also be interested in reading an older piece I wrote on the same subject.

                              • 1 vote
                              #26.4 - Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:49 PM EDT
                              Reply
                              jpark

                              I would like to comment on something you said in the article at the beginning:

                              A fairly recent Gallup poll revealed that more than 50% of Americans would decline to vote for a "generally well-qualified candidate" nominated by their own political party if that candidate were an atheist.

                              You immediately likened this to prejudice. Why?

                              More than 50% of Americans believe in God. Their model of reality includes God. If they feel that a candidate has a flawed model of reality, why would you expect them to support that candidate?

                              • 2 votes
                              Reply#27 - Fri Sep 26, 2008 2:07 PM EDT
                              spiffie

                              Oddly, atheists still find a way to vote for Christians at all levels of government. I guess that makes us more virtuous than a good number of Americans in at least one respect.

                              • 3 votes
                              #27.1 - Fri Sep 26, 2008 2:12 PM EDT
                              jpark

                              spiffie,

                              Generally, atheists must vote for someone who believes in God if they vote at all. I was commenting on the likelihood of a person who believes in God voting for a person who does not when there is a choice.

                              The question I was asking, however, is why Danny likened this to prejudice.

                              Even if we dispense with any consideration of religion, people generally vote for leaders who see things the way they (the voters) see them.

                              • 2 votes
                              #27.2 - Fri Sep 26, 2008 2:28 PM EDT
                              renderedtruthDeleted
                              Danny McGee

                              More than 50% of Americans believe in God. Their model of reality includes God. If they feel that a candidate has a flawed model of reality, why would you expect them to support that candidate?

                              Because 1) the separation of church and state makes religious belief absolutely irrelevant in a political candidate, and 2) this is a member of one's own political party who has already been chosen for the nomination and is generally well-qualified.

                              We're talking about someone (we'll call him Bob), who is a theist, having two choices on the table for president of the United States:

                              1. A member of Bob's own political party. Well-experienced, strong leadership skills, good public speaker, mostly all of the qualities Bob looks for in a candidate, and this candidate shares most or all of Bob's opinions on all the important political issues. This candidate is an atheist.

                              2. A member of the opposite political party. It's likely that nearly every single one of his important political positions stand in direct contrast to Bob's. This candidate believes in God.

                              Bob votes for 2. Please, explain to me how this makes any sense at all.

                              • 1 vote
                              #27.4 - Fri Sep 26, 2008 7:45 PM EDT
                              jpark

                              Please, explain to me how this makes any sense at all.

                              This candidate does not understand the nature of reality. He may become the president with control of nuclear weapons. It makes sense to choose a candidate who does discern between reality and fantasy.

                              Why do you compare the choice to discrimination?

                              • 2 votes
                              #27.5 - Fri Sep 26, 2008 7:55 PM EDT
                              MightyMait

                              1) the separation of church and state makes religious belief absolutely irrelevant in a political candidate

                              This is false. The Constitution explicitly forbids the government from establishing any particular religion or church. It says nothing about whether those in government can or should use their faith to guide their decision-making.

                              • 2 votes
                              #27.6 - Fri Sep 26, 2008 8:02 PM EDT
                              jpark

                              MightyMait,

                              You are correct. I elided over that because people have been fed the 'wall of separation' fiction so long that they are generally unable to accept the reality which is that the constitution constrains the government, it does not constrain citizens -- even when those citizens function as elected officials or as employees of the government.

                              • 2 votes
                              #27.7 - Fri Sep 26, 2008 8:18 PM EDT
                              MightyMait

                              You are correct. I elided over that because people have been fed the 'wall of separation' fiction so long that they are generally unable to accept the reality which is that the constitution constrains the government, it does not constrain citizens -- even when those citizens function as elected officials or as employees of the government.

                              So true. You're a swell human being, jpark. I agree with just about everything you've ever written that I've seen (though I can't blame you for disagreeing with some of my more off-the-wall statements). Occasionally, I have something (hopefully) useful to add to what you say.

                              I can't believe I've not yet requested your friendship.

                              • 2 votes
                              #27.8 - Mon Sep 29, 2008 7:10 PM EDT
                              jpark

                              I like most of what you say too, friend.

                              • 2 votes
                              #27.9 - Mon Sep 29, 2008 7:17 PM EDT
                              Reply
                              netgrits

                              Here's some good input on 'existentialism' ---

                              http://rfbt.blogspot.com/2008/07/existentialism-death-and-isolation.html

                              • 2 votes
                              Reply#28 - Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:14 PM EDT
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